Eastbound Strangler Atlantic City Serial Killer with James Leonard

Louis Casadia (00:00)
Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Louis Casadia. I'm a criminal trial attorney in the South Jersey area. I'm going to be your host today on the New Jersey Criminal Podcast. Today, we got attorney Jim Leonard here. He's going to be talking about one of his seminal cases that he handled, State versus Terry Olsen. Jim, why don't you introduce yourself?

James Leonard (00:18)
Lou, thanks for having me. My name is James Leonard. I'm a criminal practitioner. I've been practicing out of Atlantic City, Atlantic County, South Jersey for the better part of 23, 24 years. Criminal law is my primary practice area. I do domestic violence. I appear in family court. I do DV trials, restraining orders. I do some entertainment law. I bounce around quite a bit.

superior municipal federal courts all over the state, primarily based out of Atlantic County in South Jersey.

Louis Casadia (00:51)
Gotcha. Do you wanna talk about your celebrity for a little bit or for a second or?

James Leonard (00:57)
Yeah, so

in addition to, you know, the criminal work, I've done some entertainment law over the last 10 to 15 years, known primarily for working with and representing Teresa Giudice from the Real Housewives of New Jersey, who is a client of mine to this day, a very dear friend, someone that I respect. Having worked with her for the last decade, I would say has brought me some of my most rewarding work.

some of my most challenging work, but it has been a privilege to work with her and her family. I hold them very near and dear to my heart. we're here today to talk about another case I would say prior to me getting involved with Ms. Judice and that world, I got involved with this case that was based off of tragedy actually of four women.

that were found dead, behind a stretch of motels in West Atlantic city here in Atlantic County back in November of 2006. and got involved in April of 2007, representing an individual who was deemed a person of interest in that, never formally charged.

but labeled a person of interest, you know, pictured on the front pages of the newspaper, back when newspapers were actually a thing and people bought them and paid attention to them. Local news, Philadelphia news, national news, national news programs, like 48 hours. it was a very big case. Certainly at that time, back in 2007.

the biggest thing that I was involved with.

Louis Casadia (02:42)
And how did you become involved? How did you end up getting hired in the case?

James Leonard (02:47)
So I remember, I actually remember driving down to Atlantic City the night that they found the bodies. I was actually coming down time with family. were having a, we were actually playing cards. And I remember being on the expressway and just being distracted by lights and sirens and

the illumination of lights that it looked, it looked like they were filming a movie, if I'm being honest with you. And I drove past it, not having any idea what I was driving past. I would learn the next day in the newspaper that they found four women. And obviously this was the crime scene. I was not the original attorney of Mr. Olsen.

Louis Casadia (03:20)
Right.

James Leonard (03:37)
had another attorney who was based out of Salem County. I received a phone call, as I remember it from a family member who asked me if I would travel to Salem County jail to see him. and I had been in County jails, Atlantic County, Camden County, everywhere for a number of years as I was practicing by that point, you know, six years or so.

When I went to the Salem County jail, I'll never forget this, and I'd been there before, and I've been there many times since, but when I went there and I told them who I was there to see, they took special precautions as if I was going to see Hannibal Lecter. And they gave me a device that I can only describe as I remember it. It was shaped like a grenade. And...

They said that when I'm having a meeting with this individual, this device needed to remain on the table between he and I. So I said, well, you what's that for? And they said, in the event that there is any sort of disturbance or physical altercation and the device gets knocked on its side, that will alert us to come. And I said, I don't think I'm worried about, I'm not worried about that. And they said,

Louis Casadia (04:55)
Thanks

James Leonard (04:58)
You can't go in without it. It's you. There's no visit without it. I said, me the device. We went in. I'm waiting for him. They bring him in and knowing that he's allegedly involved with these murders. I'm I don't know what to expect, but what I got was someone who immediately came off to me as someone.

that not only was not involved in this, but was not capable of such an act. And I can't really describe that, but just being in the presence of somebody that would have taken four lives, you would expect something about them when they walk in the room. And I did not feel that right away. We have a conversation. He tells me he's adamant that he was not involved in this, this was, you know,

The papers got it wrong. The police got it wrong. There was some different things going on and I believed him. I really believed him when he told me that he had been questioned by the detectives intensely for anywhere from six to eight hours without a lawyer, never asked for a lawyer because he had nothing to hide. If that wasn't enough, then he told me, well, I offered them my DNA.

I said, take my DNA, you can have it. I have nothing to hide. And all of this led me to believe, including my gut instinct, there's no way this is the guy. So we end up making some small, yes.

Louis Casadia (06:30)
How did they how

was he why was he developed as a as a suspect in the first place?

James Leonard (06:37)
So...

in West Atlantic city at that time, not today, but at that time, there was a stretch of seedy motels and the women, were four in total that were found behind those motels. along like a dirt path and a little, I'm not gonna call it, it's a stream of water, right? But it's more of like a drainage ditch. And this is between the,

Black Horse Pike in the Atlantic city expressway. He at that time or for a period of time around that time was working as a handyman in one of the hotels. And the story was that his room or his door actually backed up to the area in which these women were found. So the theory was, you know, he had proximity to the location.

He was there and you know, they thought they had developed some other things that made him look like the guy. But if my gut reaction wasn't what it was, him speaking without a lawyer wasn't what it was, when he told me that he offered to give them DNA, I felt really comfortable that the guy that I'm now going to represent, the guy that I'm sitting here with is not the guy. So the conversation ends up.

Louis Casadia (07:41)
Right.

James Leonard (08:02)
making small talk, I tell him I'm gonna get involved, I'm asking him about himself, we're just making generic small talk. And we're now getting ready to wrap up and I'm grabbing my stuff and my papers or my file, whatever, ends up knocking the device that separated us down. I had forgotten all about this thing, right? So it just is on its side, it doesn't make any noise, it's just no longer standing upright, it's on its side.

Louis Casadia (08:07)
.

Right.

James Leonard (08:29)
So we're talking and I hear this thunderous, it literally sounded like horses were coming towards us. And I'm like, I'm like, what is that sound? And he's like, I don't know. I've never, I don't know what it is. And I'm thinking, what is it? What is it? And I found out exactly what it was because out of the corner of my eye, here comes the officers.

Louis Casadia (08:39)
Jesus.

I'm sure you found out what it was pretty quick.

James Leonard (08:55)
in riot gear, shields, helmets, masks, and they are anticipating that Hannibal Lecter is attacking me and they're gonna save my life. Meanwhile, the lawyer knocked the thing over. I'm jumping up in front of them, waving my hands, you know, telling them to stop, stop. I'm actually getting in front of him, because I don't know what they're gonna do.

Louis Casadia (08:57)
my god.

Right.

James Leonard (09:21)
And I am saying, I knocked the thing over, relax, stop. And they stopped. They were not happy with me at all. I got screamed at the entire walk back out of there and in the lobby to get my keys. But that's how I met my client. And that was our first meeting. you know.

Louis Casadia (09:37)
Yeah, yeah.

why was he in the Salem County Jail?

James Leonard (09:41)
So he was never actually charged here in Atlantic County, but what happened was he was from Salem. When they developed him as a person of interest in this Atlantic County investigation, they executed a search warrant on his home and he was charged down there with an invasion of privacy charge, which I believe was a fourth degree charge. There was some issues there,

Louis Casadia (09:49)
Right.

Right.

James Leonard (10:08)
they gave him an insanely high bail, a really high bail, because the thinking was they're eventually going to charge him with these murders. And I was very aggressive and very loud about this isn't a bail, it's a ransom. I was maybe, you know, hot dogging it a little bit. And I ended up getting him released. I don't remember what the timeframe was, but it was within...

Louis Casadia (10:14)
Right.

James Leonard (10:35)
was within a couple of months, because we also did something else. We also did something else. In Atlantic County, even though he had volunteered his DNA during his initial interrogation, the Atlantic County prosecutor's office filed a motion to compel his DNA, which he had voluntarily offered to give it to them.

Louis Casadia (10:59)
Right.

James Leonard (10:59)
So we

had a hearing. remember that hearing was in June of 2007 or 2008. I don't remember. No, we did not. And we actually, we used the hearing to say, we volunteered it. They can have it. Shortly thereafter, we ended up getting him released and he's been free ever since, God willing. And he's never been charged and lives a great, know, lives his life.

Louis Casadia (11:06)
Did you oppose the hearing? Or did you just consent? Yeah.

Right. Right.

James Leonard (11:29)
but was never involved in this case. But my involvement in the case took some very interesting turns and had a lot of contact with individuals that some said they were responsible. Some said they knew who were responsible. I had a call within the last 90 days that I passed on to the prosecutor's office of somebody identifying someone they thought was a suspect.

Louis Casadia (11:56)
Sorry.

James Leonard (11:57)
But there was one person in particular that I had a unique connection with in this case. So when we were appearing in court, there was a woman who was, and she's deceased, I'm not gonna mention her name, but she was a very well-known prostitute in Atlantic City, right? She had done television shows and documentaries about Atlantic City and she was,

Louis Casadia (12:19)
Right.

James Leonard (12:24)
If you were in Atlantic City and you were a police officer or you were familiar with that area, you were familiar with this woman. She was well-known. And she had come to court when we went to court and she gave an interview saying, I was with him. He was a customer of mine. And he told me he did horrible things. And he told me...

that, you know, he was at a foot fetish because the interesting part about the foot fetish was all four of these women were found without shoes. All four of these women were found without shoes and they were all facing in the Eastern direction. So they were facing towards Atlantic city. And you know, some FBI profile or at the time came up with some theory about why they were all facing East, which I don't really think there was much to that.

Louis Casadia (13:00)
Right.

James Leonard (13:18)
but none of them had shoes. the other prevent...

Louis Casadia (13:20)
What was

the theory from the FBI as to why they were pointing east?

James Leonard (13:25)
So the theory, which sounds ridiculous at this time is that the killer may have been Middle Eastern descent and he was facing all of the women towards Mecca. I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. And I only heard it from one person and he was a retired profiler. With all due respect, I thought it sounded insane to me.

Louis Casadia (13:50)
Yeah, I see this. It's

all a little bit of grasping at straws there trying to make sense of something that probably just means nothing. But

James Leonard (13:58)
Correct, I

don't think there was any religious connotation to what happened here, but this woman, she comes to court and she gives an interview outside in the hallway.

Louis Casadia (14:09)
Well, can I ask you real quick?

Was Terry Olsen, was he Muslim in religious practice?

James Leonard (14:17)
Absolutely not, no.

Louis Casadia (14:18)
So that's

that theory didn't even help the state, right? In regards to your client. Yeah. So you were saying about the the witness.

James Leonard (14:21)
That's the point, correct. So.

So

she gives an interview and they asked me what I think of her interview. And I said some things that were not nice about her attacking her credibility, so on and so forth. We go home.

Maybe two months later, my office is in Atlantic City. My office is three or four blocks away from the area where most of these women were last seen, right? On Pacific Avenue, I'm on Atlantic Avenue, but it's about four blocks away. So I'm stopped at a red light and I look over and I see the woman that I just described coming towards my car. So I'm like, I don't want to talk to this person.

Louis Casadia (15:05)
Okay.

James Leonard (15:07)
I don't wanna be seen with this person. And she starts knocking on, I'm pretending I don't see her. She starts knocking on my window.

Louis Casadia (15:14)
Was this the same woman that gave the statement? The prostitute that gave the statement? Gotcha. All right. So she comes up to your car, right? Yeah.

James Leonard (15:17)
Correct. Correct. Correct. So I pretend I don't see her, but she's knocking on my window. I don't want to be seen with her, but she's knocking on the window.

Roll down the window. I got to talk to you. She says, I said, do me a favor. Come to my office. I tell her my offices. I'm going there now. You can come there, but I'm gone. I'm not going to sit there and talk to her. Right? So about 20 minutes later, the secretary.

Louis Casadia (15:33)
Yeah.

Right, right. Yeah. And

for those watching, just to understand, when you're an attorney and you're especially in a high profile case like that, you do not want to talk to witnesses by yourself because it could just create all sorts of problems for you, especially...

James Leonard (15:54)
You also,

you, you also don't want to be seen in broad daylight talking with a very well-known prostitute, right? So, so.

Louis Casadia (16:01)
Yeah, that's I mean, that's another layer too. Yeah, I mean, definitely

don't don't don't that but continue Jim. Yeah, I can't I can only imagine like

James Leonard (16:08)
I couldn't get out of there fast enough. I couldn't get out of there fast enough, right?

So the secretary tells me this person is here. She comes back and she says, this is where it gets actually pretty interesting. So she comes back and she says, I made a mistake. I said, okay, it wasn't your guy. I said, tell me why. Now what she doesn't know is when I got involved in the case,

Louis Casadia (16:17)
Right.

James Leonard (16:38)
I gathered as much material as I could find. now I'm involved in April of 07. They find the bodies in November of 06. So, and this meeting that I'm having with her is sometime between June and October, I think of 07, okay?

Louis Casadia (16:49)
Right.

So when you say

you gathered materials, what materials did you gather?

James Leonard (17:03)
So there were a ton of newspaper articles written about the incident. She is interviewed in one of them and her name is mentioned. Like I said, she was extremely well known at that time. She was just somebody that was part of the fabric of Atlantic City, right? For whatever she did, she did, but people knew who she was. So she gives an interview.

Louis Casadia (17:10)
Right.

Okay.

James Leonard (17:31)
the day after the bodies are found to the New York Post, which I had the interview. In it, she talks about being with a man who was a customer who said he had done horrible things, had a foot fetish, so on and so forth. All the same things that she said about my client in her interview. But she gives a description.

Louis Casadia (17:47)
Right.

James Leonard (17:59)
and the description is contained in the article. She said he had a really big beer belly. My client doesn't have a beer belly. He had a beard. My client, I don't believe had a beard at that time. I don't remember. Was wearing sunglasses. And she said, was wearing a hat, a black hat with a gold insignia. So she described somebody and she's describing that person's not my client.

So when she tells me that she made a mistake in my office, I said, well, tell me, tell me why. How'd you make a mistake? She said, because your client is in jail and I recently spoke to the guy that I was talking about. So I now know it wasn't your client. Okay. I said, you spoke to him. Yeah. So do you get his name? No. Blah, blah, blah. He just caught.

Louis Casadia (18:48)
There you go.

Yeah.

James Leonard (18:55)
He calls me when he comes to town. Well, this gets very interesting. I'm telling you, this gets very interesting.

Louis Casadia (18:55)
Did she have a nickname? Did she have a nickname for him? Yeah. There we go. Yeah.

James Leonard (19:03)
So I said, all right, great. I said, well, one day maybe you can come in here and in the same way that you put it all out there, maybe you can put it all out there that you got the wrong guy, right? Fast forward, we get my guy released and we do 48 hours. We do an episode of 48 hours. I think it was called

beyond the boardwalk, something like that. I'm featured on it. There's a bunch of people on it. They put her on it. They put her on it. She, if I'm not mistaken at this point, she might still be telling the story about my guy. I forget the timeline, but that's not really important. Eventually.

Louis Casadia (19:28)
Right?

Okay.

So at that point

she was mistaken about being mistaken.

James Leonard (19:50)
or shortly thereafter. But what ends up happening is in my office in the very office that I'm sitting in now, I hold a press conference. I invite her. I invite my client and I invite the husband of one of the deceased four women and all the media people come and she apologizes to my client and she says it's not him so on and so forth.

Louis Casadia (19:52)
Gotcha.

bright.

Okay.

James Leonard (20:17)
And the husband of one of the women says, I don't believe it's him or something along those lines, but I want to put the attention back on finding whoever did this, which by the way, way too much attention was given to my client and whether he was or wasn't. And in my opinion, never enough attention given to these four women and their families for women. Several of them, I believe were mothers.

They were sisters. They were daughters. Some of them were wives. These were real people and they had fallen on some hard times and some challenges

Louis Casadia (20:56)
I'm just ask you real quick about those women where were they all was it was it alleged that they were all also prostitutes or were they okay I got you

James Leonard (21:04)
Correct.

They were all prostitutes. That was what was reported at the time. And in large part, it was like they were forgotten in all of this, right? so anyway, fast forward now, I remember this because this is a very critical day. I...

Louis Casadia (21:17)
Yeah.

James Leonard (21:28)
I tell my office on this particular day, I'm leaving, I'm leaving. I'm doing something that day and I don't want to be interrupted unless it's an absolute 911 emergency. I need a day. Leave me be. Don't call me with the normal stuff. Give me one day. Sure enough that day by noon, the office is calling with a 911 emergency. And the 911 emergency is that woman.

Louis Casadia (21:56)
Yeah.

James Leonard (21:57)
The woman that we're talking about was demanding to speak to me. She was in the office and wouldn't leave until she spoke to me. I get on the phone and she said, I just want you to know the guy that I've been talking about is coming to Atlantic City tonight. I'm going to meet with him. And this is the kicker. I've already reached out to America's most wanted. They're coming down. They're coming down.

Louis Casadia (22:04)
my god.

James Leonard (22:24)
to get him on video. So I said, wait, what? She said, absolutely. I, I had a relationship with one of the producers when they were investigating the story. I just wanted you to know. said, well, now I guess I'm going to come down to Atlantic city. So I reach out to the America's most wanted producers. I get the numbers. They're on their way from DC, the whole bit. So

Louis Casadia (22:26)
Right?

James Leonard (22:50)
She now remember the description. I gave you the beer belly the beard the hat black hat gold insignia sunglasses. So she calls me and says I'm going to be at this particular location. So I had a private investigator who worked with me at the time who was a former police officer. He said I'm going to call a police officer and have them go and at least like do surveillance.

Louis Casadia (22:55)
Right, right.

James Leonard (23:17)
The police officer does one better. He sees the two of them and the gentleman that she's with is drinking an open container in public. So he gives him a citation, but in doing that, he gets his name. He gets his identifiers, right? My investigator is over there taking pictures from afar.

Louis Casadia (23:29)
Great.

Alright.

Right.

James Leonard (23:47)
America's most wanted is still on the way down. So when the guy comes back to my office, he shows me the pictures. Beer belly, check. Beer, check. Sunglasses, check. Now remind you, this is a year after she gives this exact description to the New York Post. Here's the kicker for me. He's wearing a New Orleans Saint baseball hat, black hat with a gold insignia.

Louis Casadia (24:14)
Right.

There you go.

James Leonard (24:17)
Not only

is it the same guy, he's wearing in essence the exact same outfit a year later. So America's most wanted comes down. They actually use my office as a staging. So they get all this stuff set up. They bring a very attractive female correspondent who is going to go undercover. This is what they're going to do. So

Louis Casadia (24:39)
Okay.

James Leonard (24:42)
He is, I'm not gonna mention the name of the establishment because they probably wouldn't want the notoriety, but yes.

Louis Casadia (24:45)
Can I ask, can I

ask those at this point, at this point, is is the prosecutor's office aware of what's happening or are they involved at all?

James Leonard (24:58)
We're going to come back to that point in a second. Okay. Because they were not, they were not real thrilled with what I'm getting ready to tell you. Okay. They got to remember this is when I first got involved with the case, Jeff Blitz was the prosecutor after Mr. Blitz. was prosecutor Housel God rest his soul. Right? So I was involved at Blitz into the transition to Housel.

Louis Casadia (25:00)
I got you, all right.

Okay

Right. Right.

James Leonard (25:26)
I don't remember who the prosecutor was at this time. It may have been household, but it may have been blitz. I don't remember when they, you know, when that happened. but so the America's most wanted is going to go to where he is and they're going to send this very attractive correspondent who's wearing a microphone and a camera to engage him. So he is sitting on a porch of a, we'll call it a local hotel.

Louis Casadia (25:47)
Right.

James Leonard (25:54)
that has like a porch, like a rooming house type thing. She drives up. He's there and she's trying to do something with her car. She's pretending that her car won't start. So this guy, this guy, our guy comes off of the porch and offers to help, gets himself on camera, gets close to her.

Louis Casadia (26:09)
Thank you.

James Leonard (26:23)
She pops the hood, the car is nothing wrong with the car anyway. He tells her what to do. She starts the car up. Magically, it works. She says, I'm so grateful. Thank you. You know, what can I, what can I call you? What's your name? So he refers to himself as you. He says to her, you can call me river, darling. Those are his exact words. You can call me river, darling. So

He's calling himself River. Okay. She leaves. They come back. They got him on video. Blah blah blah. Night's over, right? Night's over. So now they got the guy on video. They got his name from the open container citation. I call the prosecutor's office. I'm expecting like a pat on the back, you know, like good work. They're not happy. They're not happy. They don't like

Louis Casadia (26:51)
Okay.

Nah, you're not getting that. No, no way.

James Leonard (27:20)
They don't like any of this. They don't like any of this, right? So whatever, a month goes by, a full month. Secretary calls, the lady's back in the office. She has to see you. It's an emergency. Bring her back and she comes in and she's got something in her hand. She has a card in her hand, like a birthday card in an envelope.

Louis Casadia (27:22)
Right.

boy.

James Leonard (27:49)
And I said, what's this? She said, he wrote me a letter. He wrote me a letter. I said, the guy wrote you a letter. Yeah. Well, he gave me a card.

So I open the cord up now.

her name and address are on the front. It's postmarked from Florida, right? So I know she didn't do this because she never leaves Pacific Avenue, right? It's postmarked from Florida, her name and address. I opened it up.

Louis Casadia (28:14)
Mm-hmm.

James Leonard (28:20)
Chilling when I open it up. It's on the out on the outside of the card are four angels. Now remember, we're talking about four deceased women. So there are four angels like like that. And it might have been one angel that was like ascending to heaven, but there was four.

Louis Casadia (28:30)
Right.

James Leonard (28:45)
Silhouettes of the Angels 1 2 3 4 open the card up. I forget what the the card said, you know by Hallmark, whoever makes the card but handwritten it says to the woman

Louis Casadia (28:48)
Right.

James Leonard (29:02)
from the man. Thanks for the CD. So I say to her, what's he talking about? She said, he wanted the DVD of the 48 hours. He knew I had it. He left with the DVD. So I'm like, why would he want that? She's like, he was the guy. I'm telling you. So I open, I go back to the envelope and I look at the return address, his return address.

Louis Casadia (29:06)
Okay.

Right.

Right.

Right.

James Leonard (29:31)
some address in Florida, which by the way, it was not real because we looked it up wasn't real, but as his name at the top, he puts the Riverman. Now refers to himself as River with the America's most wanted correspondent. So while she's standing over my desk, I Google the Riverman. The Riverman is a book.

Louis Casadia (29:34)
Right.

Okay.

James Leonard (30:00)
and a documentary about the Green River Killer who hunted prostitutes in Seattle, Washington or outside of Seattle, Washington and dumped their bodies in the Green River. There's a body of water there. All four of these women were prostitutes and they were partially submerged in this, you know, stream, if you will. So I'm like, wait a second. This guy is nicknamed,

Louis Casadia (30:16)
you

Yeah.

Did they catch the river man in Seattle? Okay.

James Leonard (30:29)
They caught the green river killer. They caught the green river

killer. The river man is writing this woman a letter. Right? So now I'm like, if you're going to come up with a nickname, you're going to name yourself after a serial killer that kills prostitutes. You're going to spend time with a prostitute. You're going to talk to her about a foot fetish. All the boxes are being checked. And by the way, all of this is good for my client.

Louis Casadia (30:37)
Right, right.

Yeah.

James Leonard (30:58)
Because if he's the guy that did it, my guy didn't do it, right? So I'm like, plus, you know, four women are dead, right?

Louis Casadia (31:01)
Right. Right.

Can we back up real quick? just want to ask you, the four, for the 60 minutes program, 48 hours, other than pretending their car was broken, talking to the guy and getting his like nickname, did he say anything to them or did they like, did anything come of that?

James Leonard (31:08)
Yeah.

48 hours.

No,

now that was that was America's most wanted. Now. Here's the irony of that. They filmed that segment and America's most wanted ceased to exist. Months later, it never made the air. What I described to you never made the air. It's in some archives somewhere.

Louis Casadia (31:30)
Uh-huh. Right.

okay.

I

I gotcha. So what was I mean, was something said in that segment that would be evidentiary if they ever charged him with something?

James Leonard (31:54)
Other than him referring to himself as River. Right? So, so now I feel like, you know, I'm not a detective. I'm a lawyer, but I'm like, this is pretty good. Call the prosecutor's office again. Somebody comes out to my office. I'll never forget. I've got in an, I've got in a bag, the envelope, the car, the original figured, maybe he licked the envelope. There's DNA. You've already got his name.

Louis Casadia (31:58)
Riverman. Right. I got you.

James Leonard (32:25)
See you, know you got DNA from the crime scene because you took my client's DNA. So why not? they were not happy. They were pissed. They were pissed. And so they wanted me to shut up. They wanted me to shut up. and there was a divide in that office at that time.

Louis Casadia (32:30)
Right.

they want you to do yeah yeah

James Leonard (32:46)
of people that I think thought my guy was the guy. And then there was others that didn't think he was the guy. I can tell you that a very, very, very well-respected FBI agent who's now retired, who I have a relationship, professional relationship with, told me unequivocally my guy was not the guy. And he never subscribed to that theory, even in the beginning. But there were some that did.

Louis Casadia (32:50)
Right.

All right. Well, I can tell you from personal experience and for the audience, I was a prosecutor for seven years before I started my practice. Once the police have a theory on the case and they start really going down that rabbit hole, it is very difficult for them to change course. So, not surprised that you were in that position.

James Leonard (33:14)
And but to this day.

So.

And listen, we're going on, this is almost 20 years ago of them finding the bodies and so on. We're approaching in October, it'll be 19 years, right? So.

Louis Casadia (33:41)
Right.

James Leonard (33:48)
I will say this to the credit of the subsequent administrations of the PR because started off with prosecutor Blitz, prosecutor Housel, God rest his soul. Then it went to prosecutor McLean. Then it was prosecutor Tyner now prosecutor Reynolds. I have spoken with detectives in every administration dating back to Blitz about this case. It's been assigned reassigned.

Louis Casadia (34:02)
Right.

James Leonard (34:16)
I can tell you that I had contact within the last 90 days. So this is 19 years later with an investigator working it now recently about a call that I got passed it on and I can tell you that they are very eager to solve it. Right? So I think that

Louis Casadia (34:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, I saw,

I did see, and even when I was at the office, there was, there was definitely an effort to work on the case, even though was, it was so old and I won't get into the specifics of what they were doing because I don't know if that's public, but, that definitely like they were, they were spending time on it. so did they take the card from you then Jim? Okay.

James Leonard (34:54)
Sure.

They did. They actually took

it. gave them anything that I've ever developed as a lead including by the way, recently a call that I passed that on. I'm always going to pass on what somebody gives me. I had somebody just to back it up. I had someone who's now deceased as well. Call me from the jail. Tell me that they did it. I went in to see him with an investigator. We recorded it.

He admitted it. Turns out they didn't believe that it was him. This is somebody completely different. But again,

I don't know if he was looking for attention or what. I mean, this was a big thing. This was in all the newspapers. I mean, look, I think there's better ways to get attention than admitting to four murders that you probably didn't commit, right? Like, you know.

Louis Casadia (35:54)
Yeah, yeah. When did

that, when was that that he gave that statement?

James Leonard (36:01)
Within a year or so of the yeah. Yeah. It was, it was contemporaneous to the time. I do know that they investigated him and they found out that whether he had been in jail at one point or had relocated that he wasn't the guy. So they dismissed him. had a guy from a state prison in another state reach out.

Louis Casadia (36:04)
Okay, I got you.

Right.

James Leonard (36:28)
I did it. I want to clean my conscience. I give the information to the prosecutor's office. I actually think they might have flown out to this state to interview him. Wasn't him. So apparently Lou, there's something that you're learning here today. Apparently there are people out there that like to admit to being serial killers when they're not serial killers. So I think those people need to find some hobbies.

Louis Casadia (36:48)
Yeah. Let

me me back up. Let me back up a little bit. I have a couple of questions about the women. So they find these four bodies. They're all facing east. Did they determine that they were all killed like in the same night where they killed like at different points in time?

James Leonard (37:08)
So that's a good question. they, I don't know where the women were killed. They never actually, I don't believe they know where the women were killed. I don't believe. And I think that's one of the challenges that has always existed with this case is I don't believe they're aware of a crime scene. They know where the bodies were dumped. Each of the women were in different stages of decomposition, right? So it's November. They're in the

Louis Casadia (37:16)
Right.

Right.

Yeah.

James Leonard (37:36)
partially submerged in water. So they weren't all dumped at the same time or in this, they were all dumped within like, let's say a hundred yards of one another, give or take, but they weren't on top of each other.

Louis Casadia (37:38)
Yeah.

So they they weren't they

were not right next to each other at least when they were found

James Leonard (37:50)
Correct. They were

all within, let's say 50 to a hundred yards of one another, all without shoes, all facing the same direction and in various stages of decomposition.

Louis Casadia (38:02)
And how were they found?

James Leonard (38:04)
So I wouldn't advise this to anybody listening, but apparently if you're going down the Black Horse Pike and the expressway are parallel to one another, there was, and there still is like a dirt trail that you can walk. So apparently people that live in that West Atlantic city area, not where the motels are, but across the street, there's like condos and stuff would routinely go back there and walk.

like it was like a track and two women, two, you know, women that are not part of that underworld, two women that were actually out exercising came across the first body.

Louis Casadia (38:36)
Right.

Right.

James Leonard (38:49)
Freak out, call 911. I think, I think they saw the second body. The police come, they get rid of the women. And if I'm not mistaken, the police find bodies three and four, because again, there, there's some distance.

Louis Casadia (38:54)
Yeah.

What was

the cause of death?

James Leonard (39:05)
I believe it was something along the lines of them being asphyxiated or strangled, something like that.

Louis Casadia (39:13)
Okay, gotcha. So, are you aware, did they ever get either from the envelope or separately from the Riverman and the DNA sample to test against what they may have had?

James Leonard (39:29)
So this is my theory and this is complete speculation. I think that the DNA, whatever DNA they gathered way back when, I believe was compromised because of the elements of the fact that these women are outdoors for a period of time or submerged in water. So while they were gathering DNA,

I don't know what the quality of the sample would have been to compare it. So I don't know what they did or didn't do with the envelope. I do know with my guy. He gave his DNA in 2007 or 2008. Obviously he's free. So it tells you what it tells you. It tells you either he wasn't the guy or right. So

Louis Casadia (39:58)
Right.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, obviously there was no DNA match there.

James Leonard (40:17)
Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, and then, you know, when there was the murders of women who also, I believe were involved with prostitution in New York, on Long Island, the Giglio beach, there was some thinking that it was the same person. I was led to believe that that person's DNA did not match with this.

Louis Casadia (40:20)
Right.

Right.

James Leonard (40:43)
which leads me to believe then that maybe they do have DNA, but those are not related. They did explore that one. They did explore that.

Louis Casadia (40:48)
Right.

Right, right. So like, at what point did you know that they weren't going to charge your client? Like, did they did they tell you like, hey, we're we're moving on from your client? Or is it just kind of like, well, it's been a year. I guess they're not charging them.

James Leonard (41:03)
Never.

So early on, early on, it was palpable that they were going to charge him. And I remember having conversations with prosecutor Housel about the case and it appeared that, you know, at least in his opinion, charges were potentially going to happen.

Louis Casadia (41:14)
Right.

James Leonard (41:32)
As when my guy got released from jail after giving the DNA shortly thereafter, that's when I knew he's not getting charged. I think that we had done enough of a job of creating reasonable doubt, even though we were never formally, with one exception of doing the DNA, I was in court with him on the invasion of privacy down in Salem.

Louis Casadia (41:38)
Right.

James Leonard (41:59)
I think I did a temporary restraining order for him with some women down in Salem as well. But we never, I think we created enough reasonable doubt utilizing the media and all the interviews and stuff that boring. And look, when you take the DNA, that's supposed to be your, the DNA matches, you've got a problem, right? You take the DNA and the DNA doesn't hit. I think that's when they started to maybe,

Louis Casadia (42:12)
Right.

Yeah.

James Leonard (42:26)
Back off.

Louis Casadia (42:27)
Yeah, what was the Salem case about? The invasion of privacy?

James Leonard (42:32)
It was an

invasion of privacy. was a camera in a location where there shouldn't have been a camera and it captured some images, something. it was all in the media. It's all public record, but that was that. But I will tell you this. My client was, he presented himself to me on day one as someone that was innocent and somebody that was, in my opinion, not capable.

Louis Casadia (42:39)
Right.

James Leonard (42:57)
not capable of committing these acts. And I stand by that today and that I feel good based on my initial read and my initial gut reaction meeting him in the Salem County jail was, this is not the guy, this is not the guy.

Louis Casadia (43:00)
Right?

Yeah, do you still talk to him at all to this day?

James Leonard (43:17)
He and I are friends on Facebook. Yeah. Well, you know, every now and again, I'll get a comment or a message from him and haven't seen him in, I haven't seen him in probably a decade or so. He would come down to the office cause you know, A &E would do it. A &E did a documentary. He participated in a handful of these events, but I think he's moved on with his life and probably doesn't want to revisit it. And I don't know that there,

Louis Casadia (43:19)
Gotcha. Gotcha.

Right. Right.

Right.

I can't imagine why not.

James Leonard (43:45)
Right. And I also don't think there is a, you know, massive amount of interest cases, almost 20 years old at

point. but I think that anybody that's talking about that case should focus on the women, their families, their children. these are real people. And the irony is about a month or so before the bodies were discovered.

Louis Casadia (43:54)
Yeah.

James Leonard (44:13)
I actually just told this story not too long ago to a woman that I was visiting in the Camden County jail. I was in the Atlantic County jail. This is back in Ossex. I'm waiting for my clients to come down and they weren't bringing the men down because they had women there. There were some female inmates. And one of them was making small talk with me. Literally I was sitting.

Louis Casadia (44:23)
Right.

James Leonard (44:40)
right across from her. She was friendly. She was making jokes and she was, she made, I remembered her face, right? I remembered her face. When they found the bodies and they put these women on the newspaper, they put their faces, she was one of the four. And it was, it was chilling to me because she was so, you know, light and personable. She obviously had whatever challenges she had in life, but

Louis Casadia (44:42)
Great.

one of them.

James Leonard (45:10)
to then say, wait, that was one of the, you know, that's one of the four. I got to meet the husband of one of them. He was in the office. Very, very sad. You know, the one I know from the 48 hours had a young child who's probably now almost 30 years old, right? Like, you know, and I spent the last 20 years, 19 years without their mother. That's a hard thing. That's a hard thing.

Louis Casadia (45:35)
When you say they should pay more attention to the victims, are you suggesting there's like some sort of connection between the four of them as to who did this?

James Leonard (45:45)
Now, well, I think that I think

Louis Casadia (45:46)
other

than the fact that they may have been prostitutes at the time.

James Leonard (45:50)
I

think that had this been for school teachers, God forbid, there would have been, we've got to, you we can't forget them. I think that over the years, because of the challenges that these women had with respect to what they did or what they were doing at the time, I want to say that they've been marginalized. I don't necessarily mean by law enforcement, because I, again, I stand by what I said. They are actively

trying to solve this, right? I know that because I've had.

Louis Casadia (46:19)
Yeah, I

agree. I saw that firsthand from when I was there.

James Leonard (46:22)
But

media accounts focused more on the mystery of the whodunit and less about who these women were. And I feel that, you know, unfortunately there's a cautionary tale here, right? These women were involved with a lifestyle that's not a good lifestyle. Drugs are involved, I guess to some extent.

Louis Casadia (46:32)
Yeah.

James Leonard (46:48)
but they're put in these very vulnerable situations. And I just feel that people should be aware of this is what happened. And I think it's a cautionary tale, but it's heartbreaking. I have in my office in another room on the wall, newspaper articles from that time. And when I go look at them, one of the articles very prominently has all four women's faces. So I see their faces.

Louis Casadia (46:58)
Yeah.

James Leonard (47:16)
several times a week. They're always on my mind. They're always on my mind as are their families. I pray for them.

Louis Casadia (47:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

And is there was like during the investigation. Well, I me ask you this first. Did you ever get any discovery regarding? I mean, I they never charged your clients. He probably got nothing right.

James Leonard (47:36)
I did, I actually did because there were search warrants executed. I got search warrant returns and I got affidavits to a probable cause related to the search warrant. So I got, I did get that.

Louis Casadia (47:39)
Okay.

Okay.

Okay, you got the affidavits. And so

was there any, mean, I imagine they did some investigation into just the victim's background, like as far as like where they, who saw him last, like where they were, you know, did that amount to anything that pointed in any direction?

James Leonard (48:04)
I think

that circumstantially the proximity of the room that he was occupying to where the bodies were found, I believe that was what they were doing. That's my belief. That's my belief.

Louis Casadia (48:20)
that

so like looking into each of these women like, they were last seen in this over here. were, do you think that that sort of draw drew them to your client?

James Leonard (48:27)
So.

So, well, no, I think, I think where they found the women drew them to my client because of where they were found. But I do know with respect to all four of them were they were, I guess, known to frequent that area that I described where the original woman was that came up to my car. But I do know that one of them was, I do know that one of them was

Louis Casadia (48:37)
Okay.

Right. Right.

James Leonard (48:59)
at the Taj Mahal, which is now the hard rock. And I know that they know that because of a, they, they track the phone, right? They track the phone. So, and they know who that person was with at the casino, but I think the surveillance and whatnot showed that they left the casino and went with someone else, not that person. And they don't know who that

Louis Casadia (49:22)
Yeah.

James Leonard (49:24)
who that someone was.

Louis Casadia (49:27)
Do you think in today's day and age, I mean, you've been doing this for over 20 years. I've been doing it for, you know, about eight or nine. It seems to me and tell me if you agree. It seems to me that it would be a lot more difficult in today's world to get away with something like this, where, number one, there's cameras.

Everywhere. mean every case, you know, you know it as well as I do you did take a case on in Atlantic City and it's a high profile case a homicide or something. There's pole cameras. There's cameras from businesses that are linked up to ACPD where they pull them right out.

James Leonard (50:02)
Listen,

you have to assume that what we just talked about the Taj Mahal, she, that particular woman, presumably using a cell phone or somehow some way had, you know, connected with this individual got in a car and they went somewhere. All of that would have been, should have been on video today would be.

Louis Casadia (50:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

James Leonard (50:29)
But the

Louis Casadia (50:29)
right.

James Leonard (50:29)
rest of them presumably are picked up. There's cameras at every intersection. Atlantic city's got cameras everywhere. I don't believe, I don't believe that that crime could happen that way for that period. I just, I agree. I think technology would preclude that.

Louis Casadia (50:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. It seems,

it seems that you would really have to, you would really have to plan out every, every infinitesimal detail to, get away. Cause just, you know, these four women, mean, everyone has a, has a smartphone now, you know, even, even people who back in 2006, maybe couldn't afford one and everyone has a smartphone and

James Leonard (51:09)
The perfect

example is look at the case up in New York with the guy that killed the healthcare CEO. Everything's on video and then they they track him back to the rooming house and he lowers his mask for one second to smile at a clerk and there's the picture that's broadcast all over and then they get him into McDonald's in another state based on that pic. I mean, that's it. You're dead.

Louis Casadia (51:17)
Yeah.

Right.

And there you go, I mean, I-

Yeah, I mean the first

I'm going to tell you I could tell you the first thing, you know, if this happened today, all those women, number one, you know, everyone has cell phones. So did anyone report that missing?

James Leonard (51:45)
That's a question that I don't believe I know the answer to.

Louis Casadia (51:48)
Yeah, mean, you know, I just just from my doing, you know what I did for seven years in Burlington and Atlantic County being a prosecutor. mean, some of first things they would do now. OK, does victim have a cell phone? What's the phone number?

They're going to go get a communications data warrant over from the phone company. They're going to get a log of all the different phone calls that were made. But most importantly, they're going to get a history of the cell towers they pinged off of. So it's going to give them an approximate location. OK, like there's that. And then they're going to work their work their way backwards from there. Depending on what the phone, some of the phone companies save text messages. They would theoretically be able to get text messages depending on what on what phone company it is. So, yeah, like

going back to what we saying before, it just seems like it would be really hard for somebody to just kill these four women without leaving behind some sort of footprint, you know, either digitally or on video, which, you know, it's a shame, but yeah, mean, hopefully, what do you think the angle is now, you know, like that they're working on, you know, on the case? Like, where do you think they are? Like when they came to speak to you,

James Leonard (52:43)
Right.

Louis Casadia (52:58)
You know, not to divulge anything that they may have told you not to mention, but I mean, did they ask you any questions that kind of give you an idea of like what direction they're going in?

James Leonard (53:09)
Honestly, no, there was, it's an active investigation. They're looking into it. But no, there was no, you know, I honestly, I, it would be pure speculation, but I can tell you that for, if I've been involved with that investigation in, and again, I want to be crystal clear. I, I've basically told you everything I've been involved with. I'm not.

Louis Casadia (53:19)
Yeah.

James Leonard (53:32)
involved. Nobody shares anything with me. I share with them, but nobody shares with me as they should. Nobody should be sharing anything with me, but, um, I can tell you that in the beginning, in the early years, the timeframe that I'm talking to you about 07, 08, 09, it seemed like nobody wanted to hear from me because I think they wanted my guy that switch.

Louis Casadia (53:59)
Right.

James Leonard (54:02)
Sometime not too long after that and I would say that my encounters with them over the last decade or so have been more What do you got? We'll look at it. We'll you know, we'll take it in and so there's definitely been a shift but everybody that I've encountered even the ones that I think were adverse to You know my client or me at that point in my opinion They all wanted to solve this case They had their theories

Louis Casadia (54:13)
Yeah.

Right.

James Leonard (54:31)
They might've thought this defense attorney is doing whatever he can do to create doubt around his client, which I was, but I was also giving them leads, doing my job, but I was also giving them what I thought were investigative leads. mean, I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but when somebody nicknames themselves after a serial killer that kills prostitutes and dumps them in water, I don't know. I take a look at that guy.

Louis Casadia (54:42)
Yeah, sure. It's only your job.

Right.

Yeah, well you would hope that, I mean did you, from your own knowledge, like did they go and talk to that guy or did they look into that guy?

James Leonard (55:10)
They had

all the information, what they did with it. don't know. I don't know if that individual is alive or not. I don't know.

Louis Casadia (55:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, who knows. I mean, certainly I know that, you know, they've been making a lot more advances in just from personal experience. They've been making a lot of advances in DNA. you wonder at some point, does that that advancements bridge a gap that they might have in in identifying a profile for the killer?

James Leonard (55:39)
But you also have to say to yourself, we're going on 19 years. Whoever this person is might be deceased. know, like witnesses might be like, you know, we're talking about, think about all the prosecutors that I mentioned. Blitz is retired. Prosecutor Housel, God rest his soul, he passed away. Prosecutor McLean is still, you know, active. Prosecutor Tyner.

Louis Casadia (55:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's on the bench now.

James Leonard (56:05)
They're no longer with the office, right? But the point being is there were investigators that have retired, some have passed. So the passage of time never helps with these cases. just doesn't.

Louis Casadia (56:18)
For sure. You gotta imagine there's gonna be a point where they're just gonna close it. And it may not be for a while from now, but at some point they're gonna say, you know what, this person is more than likely deceased. We've exhausted all investigative leads. there's really bearing like some sort of technological advancement that neither one of us can foresee. Like, you know, at some point they're probably gonna say like there's just nothing more we can do.

but it didn't seem like they'd reached that point yet, at least when I was, when I was there, but

James Leonard (56:46)
Right, and listen,

my goal, my goal and my responsibility to all of this was to...

prove in my opinion that they were wrong about my client. And I think I think I did that. He's been free for almost two decades and he remains free living his life. So to that point I did my job and I know that they're doing theirs and I will say this is one that I can absolutely say I am rooting for them. I am rooting for them.

Louis Casadia (57:00)
Right.

Right.

Yeah, yeah,

mean. Right.

James Leonard (57:24)
to find the killer,

but I am absolutely certain that if they do, and God willing they do, that they're gonna find out that it wasn't my guy. But there shouldn't be somebody walking among us that's capable of taking the lives of four women and they just get away with that. That can't happen. So I'm rooting for the state to eventually find the person or persons responsible for those murders.

Louis Casadia (57:41)
Yeah.

Is that trail where the women were, where the bodies were, were, were dumped? Like is that, is that, was that trail like, I don't know if hidden is the right word, but was it one of those things where if you didn't live in Atlantic city or live in the area that you wouldn't really know about it.

James Leonard (58:09)
I can tell you this, I was born in Atlantic City. I spent a lot of time working in the casinos, spent a lot of time driving the Black Horse bike, the Atlantic City Expressway. I never knew what was between the two. So I would assume that...

Louis Casadia (58:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, right.

James Leonard (58:29)
If you ever frequented those motels, you would know that it existed. would assume that if you maybe did work on like, you know, the highways or you knew what was back there, but I would think that if you were a guy from New York, you would, you would not know about that. So that's a very good question. The motel that we're talking about.

Louis Casadia (58:34)
bright.

Yeah.

James Leonard (58:55)
was called the Golden Key Motel. It's no longer there. It was raised. There's, it's just, you know, the footprint of it is still there. And so are some of the other places there. But that's, you know, that's what it is.

Louis Casadia (58:59)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah, it makes you wonder, you know, whoever did this at a minimum, at a minimum, like visited that area recreationally enough to know that this trail is there, which, you know, does someone did that person stumble upon the trail? Did he find out about it and say, you know what, this would be a great spot to dump some bodies?

James Leonard (59:25)
Correct.

Louis Casadia (59:34)
Or did he just know about it already? yeah, that other individual, Riverman, he said he was from Florida. Did he move? Did you know, did he grow up in Florida or did he move down there?

James Leonard (59:46)
So the document that he mailed to the woman was postmarked from Florida with a phony address, right? From what I gather, from what I gather, because I did some research on him, I got the impression that he was a little bit of a drifter. So I don't know exactly where he was from. I can tell you that, and I'm not going to put his name out there, but...

Louis Casadia (59:50)
Right.

Oh, that's right, you'd say there was a bony. So was he actually front-blown?

I gotcha.

James Leonard (1:00:12)
When you go down the rabbit hole of what was talked about and you look his name up, there is a met.

Louis Casadia (1:00:18)
Was his name, I was gonna say,

was his name public? Like, did they report on him?

James Leonard (1:00:24)
Nobody ever reported on him, but it's out there somewhere. can find if anybody that really wants to go dig in, it's, know, you can find who this person is or was whatever, but a family member actually posted on a message board to this individual. Hey, if you're still alive, this is my address. My number reach out to me. So I think even this individual's own family was looking for him.

Louis Casadia (1:00:27)
You can see it.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, how old was he at the time?

James Leonard (1:00:58)
If I'm not mistaken, he was probably in his 50s or 60s. He wasn't a super young man. So presumably now he's would be in his 70s or later, but I don't know that he was necessarily living like, I don't know that he was going to the gym a lot and making it doctor's appointments.

Louis Casadia (1:01:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

if he's still alive.

Yeah,

yeah, I mean, who knows if he is still alive, you know, who knows what kind of health issues he has at this point. But yeah, I I hope that you hope they solve it one day. You know, you're you're I was rooting for when I was there, obviously, you know, I wasn't involved in in the investigation. I just knew they were they were doing it. And, you know.

James Leonard (1:01:22)
You know?

Louis Casadia (1:01:47)
You always sat there and hoped that maybe they'd make a break in the case. But at this point, who knows?

James Leonard (1:01:53)
some very good investigators, a good office of people that are compassionate and care. I will tell you that those that are currently assembled in the major crimes and whatnot, this would be the team that would bring it home, I would think. So we'll see.

Louis Casadia (1:02:11)
Yeah,

it's a shame when you got a good team of people and they're going in there opening a file as 20 years old. There's only so much that, you like you read a report and you're thinking to yourself, well, what's the answer to question X? Well, that was never asked. Now that witness is deceased. Right. So it stinks to the extent that you got really good guys working the case now. And maybe if there had been a different attitude back then, they could have asked those questions that

are now, unfortunately, perhaps on ass forever. But Jim, think we hit the hour mark.

James Leonard (1:02:43)
and

Lou, I appreciate you. wish

you the best as you host this for as long as you do. You're stepping into some big shoes, right? Meg Horner, who started it, is someone that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Little known fact, I know that this came up somewhere in something that she and I did together. Many, many years ago, when I was an intern,

Louis Casadia (1:02:53)
Yeah, I'm

James Leonard (1:03:12)
in the Philadelphia DA's office in the late nineties, I was Meg Horner's intern. Not a lot of people know that. And then all these years later, we reconnected when she was a prosecutor in Cumberland and Cape May, and then as a very well-respected defense attorney, but can't find them better than Meg. I can tell you that she's the best.

Louis Casadia (1:03:20)
New shit. New shit.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was I'll

be telling. Well, I'll tell you a similar story. was I was Marissa McGarvey and Emily Bell's intern back in back in the twenty twenty fourteen. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So Emily's over he's in the Cumberland public defender's office now. She's doing she's got the doing drug court and then, you know, I'm sure you know, Marissa's

James Leonard (1:03:46)
Okay.

Two good ones there, two good ones for sure.

Louis Casadia (1:04:02)
That's AG's office.

James Leonard (1:04:03)
She's with the AG's

office. So yes. good lineage there. You learn from good ones and I learned from a good one. The other person that I interned for became the actual district attorney in one of the counties outside of Philadelphia. listen, those internships are very important. You forge good relationships and it is what it is.

Louis Casadia (1:04:19)
Yeah.

Definitely.

Alright, Jim, well, it good talking to you. Thanks for coming on. I'll see you in court the next time I see you. Take care. Bye-bye.

James Leonard (1:04:28)
Likewise.

See you soon. All right, take care guys.