Active Shooters In Healthcare Environments

Speaker 2 (00:03.502)
All right. And I found you on LinkedIn and it was you posting about the hospital hostage slash active shooter situation in York, Pennsylvania. So.

That was.

Speaker 1 (00:18.318)
Welcome to the New Jersey Criminal Podcast. Our producer Tom is joined by former Green Beret and healthcare security expert Matthew Wainscott to discuss the active shooter and hostage situation. In York, Pennsylvania last week, we advise viewer discretion due to the nature of the topic. Finally, there are a few moments where we lose video, but maintain the audio feed perfectly. So please enjoy the conversation and don't forget to subscribe

at njcriminalpodcast.com. Or visit the NJ Criminal Podcast YouTube channel to subscribe for new episode alerts. Now, welcome to the NJ Criminal Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:07.532)
What was that post about and what is it that you do that you have a unique perspective or a perspective at all specifically on healthcare, hospital, active shooter situations?

Yeah, so I work in a healthcare based police department and you know, just so obviously any of these stories I really zone in on. also help teach a response active shooter class for our bedside staff nurses. And so I really try to drill into any incident involving a weapon in a hospital. Absolutely. And you know, they're really

was has not been a lot of national media coverage on this incident. And so I've been drilling into local newspapers, and who linked me to a post by Tasha Trottle. He was an RN in the ICU. And basically worse. mean, hands down, bar none, worst day of her life. You know, there was an individual they had taken care of his significant other that week. And

based off of Facebook posts from a PA who worked in the ICU. It sounds like they had to let her know that she had passed away. And there was nothing about him that made them think it was headed this route. And not sure the time lapse, although they do believe it was that week. He comes in Saturday morning with zip ties, a pistol in a bag, goes straight to the ICU, ends up zip tying at least two nurses. And

You know, ends up dying by being shot by police, in, in the exchange, in beforehand, he had shot at least one nurse, one environmental services worker, a physician and three law enforcement are, were shot one fatally. So, and then, you know, the picture of the nurse who, yeah, I hate to say it, but you know, our society, it's just so easy for us to be numb or, you know, to,

Speaker 1 (03:08.162)
to not really dive into, think through that experience. But when you see her face and if you can throw that picture, I'll send you a copy of the picture that I think is worth for those watching this. And a huge bruises, two black eyes. Yeah. So she, she was pushed into the ICU door. She was pushed into the ground. He lands on her. I it sounds like she took three significant head injuries minimum in this exchange that she remembers, let alone what else. And so, you know, for me, you know, I came across that post.

I saw that.

Speaker 1 (03:38.086)
And, I, just felt like the national news story had already moved on. was a lot involving Ukraine. was, you know, you know, as we write this Trump still relatively new to record this Trump still relatively new to the office. mean, things are moving a hundred miles an hour in the national news story. And it just felt like, man, we got, we got to tell the story of what this nurse went through. I mean, it was, I was mortified by it. And so that's where you just shared a post, you know, brief post trying to get the story out.

and linked to her Facebook post on LinkedIn. I linked her Facebook post on my LinkedIn account.

So what's the general level of security in an average hospital? I'm going to guess it varies pretty wildly state to state.

It does. And I think it varies very widely on funds. know, like looking at some of the places, uh, you know, I would say most hospitals do not have any form of, of weapons detection, uh, system. You know, they are increasing, uh, rapidly, but you know, there's, there's very little, um, on that front. know California just recently passed some,

sort of legislature requiring that. you know, I think what's interesting, you know, why, why healthcare? Why, does, why does healthcare need, you know, those type of measures as a whole? And I think if you think of it, those are very access controlled environments. you know, areas like ICUs and emergency rooms, like it's, it's funny if you, if you get somewhere and lose or misplace or forget your badge, like it can be hard to get out. Like you can, you can, you can be stuck very quickly. And so.

Speaker 1 (05:27.982)
you if you think about like the other extreme of that environment, like a jail, right at the, at that extreme, um, you know, it'd be very hard for law enforcement to get in and move around those environments. And so, uh, you know, I just think we need to be doing more because, the, the, the level of crime and violence we are seeing is rising. And, know, the amount of gun violence in hospitals we're seeing, you know, obviously across the nation as well is rising. And, know, and then we have this.

hostage, this gruesome exchange, you know, where her eyes are so black and blue that her four year old was afraid to be in the room with her. you know, and then, and then like, we're just moving off this new story very, very quickly. And so that, to me, that was where, like, have to continue to talk about this. And yeah, I mean, as a whole, from what I'm seeing very, very limited

uh, protected, you know, most, cause you think about it like an ER is open 24 seven, 365. So at a minimum, you know, these, these hospitals are generally very soft targets. And then two, you know, I, you know, looked at, um, UPMC where this, incident where this happened, they, they posted a $339 million loss for 2024. You know, there, there's also these fiscal struggles healthcare is facing right now to where

you know, even, even trying to get cameras at it or, or, you know, basic panic switches can be very challenging. could take multiple budget cycles to request these things. And, so yeah, I think, I think as a whole, our hospitals are very soft targets and people know it.

That's interesting because you mentioned posting losses and this conversation coincides with a reckoning in the business side of healthcare being wildly broken. Correct. And you would think the silver lining in the timing here might be that if the business of healthcare can be realigned in a way that's

Speaker 2 (07:47.09)
market driven and makes any kind of mathematics sense from anyone who knows anything beyond long division. Like it's a pro. There's layer after layer after layer of preposterous schema. Yes, that disrupts what should be a transparent. Customer provider relationship. It's so unbelievably.

Corrupted and convoluted were one of two countries that has people picking their own drugs out before they've even been right diagnosed with a Any kind of affliction because we're only one of two developed countries that allows Pharma advertising right which changes your health care conversation before your health care conversation starts so that's a whole thing but the biz if the business side of health care could get aligned

This isn't, this shouldn't be a weird conversation because every other business that has smart people in it, educated people in it, big groups of interested stakeholders in it seems to be able to manage the basic administrative functions. Sometimes that includes security. And for some businesses, healthcare would be in a group with lots of other businesses that have a heightened security necessity. So basically,

It's simply part and parcel of the foundation of your business. If you're running a decent business model in any way, or form, these things get addressed quite naturally because it's part of the bare minimum you need to do to serve a clientele.

And with that clientele, know, an interesting layer to this is our safety nets as a community are just rapidly decreasing. And I think most people are aware of just how many like mental health resources have evaporated, right? And so hospitals are stepping in, you know, as that safety net role. another thing to be lost, especially post COVID, you know, in COVID jails became very restricted.

Speaker 1 (10:03.414)
is restrictive as far as the types of patients or the type of prisoners they allowed in. And so they started taking less and less. And yeah, and like, and it's, it's, but it's,

I had to apply three times before county would accept me. Right. I had to get an internship. They weren't impressed with my resume.

Exactly. so we're seeing like domestic violence suspects who, you know, assaulted family members, you know, instead of, instead of like some of these assaults are heinous enough, these guys should be in jail. Um, you know, a doc I know he's got a big heart, like he's not like, uh, arrest everybody kind of got like, he's like, he, you know, he came up with the saying, and I posted this on my blog of like, you know, prisoners, you know, patients should go to the hospital, prisoners go to the jail.

And we're not seeing that. Like what's going on is the jails refusing a lot of these patients, pushing them on the hospital for these jail clearances to try and limit their liability if there's some kind of health issue. And so you'll see like essentially these police agencies dropping these guys off who are you either there's mental illness, there's impairment, there, know, drugs, alcohol, whatever. And so

You know, guys who probably should have just been sleeping off a hangover in jail for a night and kicked loose in the morning. They're in hospitals now. So instead of corrections officers who are trained and much more proficient at handling this, our nurses are, are bearing the front of this. And so, you know, there's just been like a corrosion of safety nets that hospitals are absorbing because of, you know, we don't refuse people from ERs, right? You know, with EMTALA, like everyone has seen and everyone's evaluated. And so.

Speaker 1 (11:47.758)
I don't think people realize just like the amount of things that are brought to hospitals now that in the past, you know, either a mental health service, a jail, other services of society would have managed or handled even homeless shelters, even a decrease in homeless.

There's a difference in, now when you say jails, are you talking about municipal? Jails. Yep. Interesting.

And I mean, some of it's legit. some of it's, know, drugs and stuff these people are on. I mean, they're in a tough spot. know, the complexity. I just smoked weed. Yeah, but it was laced with what? Right. And they don't, some of these guys, I believe them. don't know. Right. Like, you know, they're smoking weed.

Lace with all five. You're probably smoking Roundup in your weed. mean, depending on where you got it. mean, you know, so yeah, don't discount the fact that something might be in your weed,

Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (12:49.646)
Yes, and I forgive me go right ahead

Well, know, Tasha is just one of them. know, mean, there was a, it is, so far I'm working off of the brief of the day of the event from the district attorney and social media posts and local news media. But you know, there were others like, sorry if I'm pronouncing this wrong, but know, Jessica Brainer was also zip tied, you know, thrown to the ground.

she's a, she's another nurse. there was an EBS, employee, named Jackson Enders and, and both Jackson and Jessica have, GoFundMe pages. Hopefully, you know, we can get the word out on, on those, but you know, Jackson was shot, in the thigh. It traveled down the thigh and hit the knee. it lodged in the knee. She had four surgeries. She's home. She's safe, but you know, can't bend her knee.

Long road. She had literally just turned 19, like days before this event. mean, just a kid, like, you know, young, beautiful kid. can see it on the, on the, on the go fund me. Right. And so, you know, I, I kind of wondered this, if this individual, I suspect there's obviously some kind of mental illness with this individual, the Lester. I don't want to mess up his name, but the PA, the ICU PA.

You know, he, shared, you know, some, some, some things with him and, you know, Lester, so for, for geogenous Archangel Artees, that was his name. You know, at one point he said to one of these notes, the shooter, yep. At one point he said,

Speaker 2 (14:37.486)
Biogenes angelertes? And you're wondering why this isn't in the news?

Correct.

Speaker 2 (14:47.438)
It's because much of the news doesn't want to feed into the idea that someone with a name of that heritage is holding people hostage in hospitals. Fascinating. Yeah. I just I, I, that's hilarious in a, in a real messed up way, because in the one of the first paragraphs you went into as we began speaking was about how I can't believe how the press isn't covering this.

The way you said that immediately made me assume must be a white guy and they're not talking about like, wouldn't they be, why wouldn't they be talking? So the fact that you were surprised made me think it was a white guy. Yeah. Or someone who fits a stereotype that like the view would love to go bananas on kind of thing. Like, you know, it's a preposterous conversation to people who listen to, for example, legal podcasts versus people who.

ever spent 30 seconds watching TV. It's like the version you get through the TV. Boy, are they really insulting your intelligence as a viewer. Like if you knew how bad they were insulting your intelligence down the line, I mean. Written house, Johnny Depp, you name a trial. Mm hmm. Whatever is portrayed as the headline, right? I you 10 bucks. What's going on in the courtroom is.

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (16:12.44)
Yeah.

I'm sure it's always amazing. Like mass media versus legal blogs, legal podcasts. It's night and day. And forgive me, but it's okay. Well, that explains why, for example, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS are not out there screaming under the political circumstances. And if you're watching this in 2052 and you're wondering what we're talking about,

Donald Trump just got elected president and there's a lot of people who think he wants to, you know, get rid of every immigrant. He doesn't like immigrants, but really it's a focus on illegal immigrants. But the conversation has gotten super muddled in the mass media and become just stupid. And the last thing that I would expect to see is in the middle of that for them to take a situation that to your point, holy cow, would this be national news if a couple other characteristics were part

profile and that's just so bizarre but a real trend that you know I don't I don't I have no compunction to put that on record it's it's it's it's it's prima facie it's like plain as day right okay well that then yeah then it's it's not gonna be in the news next week either Matt let me just FYI right yeah it's

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:35.892)
Make sure I do get a package of all the links in the GoFundMe, so I'll make sure we accompany that with the story. So a little bit about your background. Where did it start and how did you evolve to this particular niche in protective services and security?

Yeah, never set out to work in healthcare, police and security ever. you know, was, September 11th was, I had always had an interest in the military. September 11th was my senior year of high school. Spent all senior year reading up on army special forces teams. And I said, that's, that's what I'm doing. And got out and listed, served in an airborne infantry platoon out of Alaska. was amazing, great experience. Made a deployment to Afghanistan there and

and went on to, you know, a special forces team, you know, was selected, went through the Q course. And interestingly enough, they retrain you in there. Like it's not just enough that you can pull trigger. Now you have to like contribute something meaningful to your team. So there's, four different specialties. And I, I do think this is big as for my development was I drew the medic card. There's four different jobs, weapons demo, engineer, weapons demo and medicine. so spent a year learning medicine. was in trauma centers.

multiple rotations. I was in El Paso, level one trauma center in Florida, Tampa general. Long story short, I get out and was looking to transition into law enforcement. had an uncle who was very influential in my development, moved into law enforcement. at the time, by this point, I'm a little bit older than everybody out. I'm getting out right in the recession, 2008, 2009 recession.

Speaker 1 (19:23.052)
first place that would hire me was, was a healthcare based police department. And, later left went, went to, went to like a road based police department, but came back and, you know, just since being back, you know, for one, it's been, it's been great for my family. but two, just been involved in different, you know, niches or roles in it. And, one of things that, you know, my wife's a nurse and, you know, what I've noticed since high school, you know, long before.

you know, the nursing days, but when we were in the army in North Carolina, you she had a patient, you know, I don't know what this would have been, 2005, 2006 timeframe that tried to choke her with her stethoscope, you know, and, and this was like, kind of putting it on my radar of like, Hey, this is the level of violence in healthcare is, pretty crazy. And so, you know, I, ended up coming back to healthcare based police department. I've been here ever since.

Yeah, one of the areas I really hone in on is trying to help prevent and then respond if you have an active shooter and so involved with training both within police and within healthcare bedside staff.

circling way back in terms of like what protection is at that level now. So we're back in hospitals. What does it look like in terms of get the sort of middle of the, give me, pick a state, give me an example of somebody who's doing it right within the constraints of the bureaucracy in which they operate.

I do think the facilities that are prioritizing it with their, they're effective with their funds. They do have the margins to where they can invest in this. do think, you know, they, it's, it's no one thing, right? Like it's, it's, it's, know, weapons, right? Isn't going to solve.

Speaker 2 (21:20.622)
It couldn't be. There's too many moving parts and it's too technical. If the listener's like, I don't know, you put a couple of cops around the place or make sure somebody drives by every 10 minutes. So if there's a response, they're always within five kind of thing. So then that involves them in a perfect world. At every entrance point of the hospital, the cops then also have some sort of access port that they have a key for.

that they have a fob for that opens up and gives them an access key to every door in the hospital that doesn't exist right now. That's not a thing that's, if it exists, it's not in general application, or if it exists in some other form, it's not in general application. But just as an example, what you don't have today, even if you have a bunch of cops, you could have a Dunkin' Donuts on one corner, right? And a Krispy Kreme on the other. Yeah. Okay?

you're still not going to have the ability for cops to be in every accent, every point of the hospital, even if they're in look, you know, wall to wall in Krispy Kreme and Dunkin Donuts across the street, because they're going to get to the hospital. They're going to get 50 feet in the door and they're going to hit a hard spot. So if they didn't have a, like think a realtor key box outside that's got maybe 15 units per doorway where

The first 15 cops through that door all have access to grab a fob and boom, they have access to every room in the hospital. That is perhaps preposterous and asinine. I don't know enough about what I'm talking about, but to give the listener an idea, that's one of probably 10 things we can come up with that isn't systemized and in alignment, both within the hospital infrastructure, as well as the local, state law enforcement route.

with getting them familiar with the campus. then also just from a practical, most your workplace violence is from the patients, right? And it can be agitated patients, it can be patients with dementia, it can be mental illness. I mean, there's a huge range.

Speaker 2 (23:31.906)
patients who were completely just whacked out. Coming out of an anesthesia at not in the right mind freaking out, I would imagine.

So hiring effective people with who can actually talk to other human beings, right? Who aren't there that need to like slap cuffs on every little thing, but are willing to be around and present. You know, I think if nurses feel comfortable calling you, you know, pre, maybe they just have to go in the room and do a procedure. Maybe they just have to go in and draw blood. You know, I think the biggest thing people can do is, prioritize it off of your personnel that you hire people to where.

They don't mind coming in and just standing at bedside, you know, shooting it with the talking with the patient. They draw the blood and you leave, you know? And so I, you know, first and foremost, it's, good people, but it's to get good people, uh, it, know, it's hard to get people in law enforcement. It's hard to get people in security right now. It's hard to get people everywhere. Uh, so, but I do think prioritizing good people and paying them well is huge because those are the officers who they're involved.

They're talking to patients, they're up on the floors, they're in the ICUs, they're invested because, like you said, and like I said at the start, it's highly access controlled environment. So it could be very challenging to get police up when you're, if this is up on the fourth, fifth floor, whatever, one of these ICUs, all your security responds up immediately as they should. How are those officers finding 5,900 or whatever unit that is?

So yeah, I think, but a lot of the violence right now is simply from patients. And so having good staff who are there, present, around, accessible, can talk to human beings, you know, is that square one, in my opinion, before any equipment or technology.

Speaker 2 (25:26.348)
Yeah, I mean, and that's it's you would think that that would also facilitate a great deal of deterrence in that if people are trained, they're going to recognize issues in advance. They're going to recognize an issue that qualifies as needing to be addressed before it's something that it becomes a mention in the quarterly report and drives your insurance cost up or something like that. So

by staff, you're talking about just even just training all the nurses and everything. So that's what your role is. And so your role, are you an employee of the hospital system? Are you an outside consultant? know you have your own business. Yes.

is, so my day job is a campus supervisor, you know, for a healthcare based police department. And yeah, so having good staff, like trained security or police, you know, I don't think it matters that much. Like I think good security can do a phenomenal job as well. Right. It's, more about the right people. You know, in times it helps, you know, at times they,

you're just a rent a cop, right? You know what mean? There are some people who are leaving unless you like rarely, but there are some people, they're just not leaving unless you put cuffs on unfortunately and you go that route. But yes, I am police within a healthcare system. And so, yeah, I think it starts with that. It starts with well-trained, good people. And it takes a special type of officer because if you think about it, most of these states,

You guys are working through this in Florida. You know, I was reading about the 67 year old who was assaulted by the individual who was brought to a facility. it Baker act in Florida? Is that right? What you guys have for.

Speaker 2 (27:21.998)
Yeah.

Right. So each state has some way to, if someone is suffering from mental illness, if they're either suicidal, homicidal, you know, failing to take care of themselves. Most States have provision where a doctor, a psychiatrist, a police officer can do what's called a civil commitment where they, they seize you and they bring you to a facility for a set timeframe. And those people are evaluated and like in Ohio, they can be held for up to 72.

business hours. so, however, though, like this is America and people don't like being, you know, told like, Hey, you're not, you're not free to go. Right. And so that creates major, confrontation in ERs, especially. And, well, so here's, here's one guy comes.

You think?

Speaker 2 (28:21.196)
I'm sure that never gets abused. And by that, mean, I'm sure that gets abused. know, much like you would see in the family court system, are certain, you know, levers that lean, you know, to certain, well, frankly, to the female, you can just look at the statistics, but, you know, there are minefields you can step in. And I'm sure there are for women, but for men, especially, it's almost cliche. Some of the pitfalls.

that you can get walloped within a core system before you can get it rectified. And I'm sure that this is the kind of thing where a real evil person, you know, would do this to destroy somebody's life.

Yeah, the ER docs generally have a better, they've kind of accepted they're not going to save the world. they, you know, they've kind of accepted like there's a small population I can help and I'm going to help them. But I do notice even more on the inpatient. So, you know, let's say there's a patient brought in, you know, suicidal, right? Needs is going to get admitted to a mental health facility, but has some sort of health condition that must be treated first, right? So these, these patients are going up to inpatient units.

You know, nurses having to take care of them. They, they may even have a 20 year old, nurses aides sitting in the room with them. This person has a diagnosed mental illness. doesn't, it doesn't mean they're violent, but you know, some of them, they want to leave, right? And so they are being held there treated medically until they can go to an inpatient unit. And that's supposed to be in Ohio. That's supposed to be reviewed, revisited every 24 hours. Well, you know, some of these docs like.

You see a total mental shift in some of these people where like, Hey, they probably don't need to be here anymore, but we're, we're holding them. Right. And so think about how this, position this places our nurses in. Right. Because there might be three of us for a 300 bed hospital. Right. And so we're all over the place.

Speaker 2 (30:14.094)
You know? three nurses, 300 beds? Is that a real ratio?

No, I mean three security guards, know, two or three security guards.

Okay, yeah, okay big difference big yes, okay

So we're, you we have to leave, right? And so now you have this, this patient who is suffering from mental illness needs admitted, probably does need treatment. And yet, they're not free to leave until this medical, right? They get so many antibiotics or whatever, until the medical side is resolved. Because the inpatient facility for mental health doesn't have the capacity to treat them medically. And so, you know, there, there's, there's a scenario right there where, you know, you see these.

these nurses like having to be basically almost like a corrections officer.

Speaker 2 (31:02.282)
It's a, yeah, it's two worlds. It's a completely, you're jury rigging every situation because in unquestionably within this framework, the situation is imperfect. And so from the perspective of the healthcare professional, it's ripe with, this is going to be one of those days I go home just frazzled and exhausted because this person's sort of in a crazy place. And from that person's perspective, even going back two minutes to what you're saying, it's like,

just the process they're in at the very moment might be causing them to act in a word crazier than they've ever acted in their life to perpetuate the seemingly necessary appropriate measured nature of the situation they're in. Whereas maybe that person's not a fit at all. In fact, maybe that person's so not a fit

Maybe they are such a straight, lay straight arrow, early paid taxes. Yeah. Church every Sunday that this mere condition is putting them in such a state that they're really, really struggling to keep it together. Yes. It could be the sheer fact that they are not the person you're looking for that has them behaving in the way that you think is what you're looking for. is, the messed up thing.

Yeah, just to point out a real grotesque feature of the conversation, guess is where I was going down that road. Fascinating.

Yeah. So I, you know, I think there is a place we were talking about, you know, making hospitals safer. I, know, I do think there are. Cameras, you know, for example, that can be used more offensively that, know, if you trust pass somebody there, they use AI or different technology to see, like if this person comes back, you know, one of the, one of the instances that just like keeps me up at night is, there was a shooting in a Bronx Lebanon hospital in New York.

Speaker 1 (33:11.442)
And, I've, I've written about it some on my LinkedIn, but this guy, was a resident who probably should have never been hired based off of what was in his history. Like I think his background check just got, there was a huge opportunity where this guy should not have been in medicine. you know, I think there was like sexual harassment type issues with staff. So ultimately he's fired. He tells them I will come back and kill you all and leaves. now I don't remember, you know, specifically what was done.

at that point, but here's what keeps me up.

But his picture wasn't put into a file that now Matt makes sure that anytime he's on not just hospital property, but hospital system property. Yeah, what the hell are we doing? That's not even a tough implementation because you would think you're doing it at the system level. It's not like you can build out.

Correct.

Speaker 1 (34:01.506)
Yep. And you could also do this. There's, there's, cameras that read license plate that can alert that this vehicle's back. Right. And that's where I think the technology comes in because this, this dude doesn't come back until two years later. And so, and here's the other thing they know in targeted violence, you know, more often than not, it's some type of grievance that leads to the act. Right. So in this instance with UPMC, the grievance was his wife passed away and he felt like they didn't do enough to save her.

Well, in this instance, his instance, he felt like his firing is what killed his career, but he didn't come back until he was fired from another job two years later and he held them responsible. Right. So, so how do you prevent these shoots? Right. Like, so they're, you know, there's turnover, right? Like we hire, like we hire a lot of retired officers who are in that window. They retire at 55, but they can't get Medicare till, you know, 65. Right. And we have some phenomenal officers.

in that window who do great work. And yet it does lead to higher turnover, right? Cause some guys are coming into these types of police agencies and they, can't wait to get to the road. And that was me, right? Like I'm just here stopping by and I'm out, right? And then you have other guys at the end of their career. So these types of departments attract agencies or these agencies have hired, we naturally have higher turnover. how, and not to mention it could have just been a day off, right? The guy who knew him, the guys who were aware of this doc,

They could have just had new staff. And so that's where I think there is some technology, license plates, readers, know, offensive cameras, cameras that conduct detect weapons using AI and then they're screened by veterans, right? Like that's where I think the layered approach that's weapons detection systems, I think help round out, you know, an excellent, well-trained police or security.

department but I do think that you know those types events that's what really like man how do you prevent this if this dude may not be coming back for they make these threats they may not be coming back for two years

Speaker 2 (36:08.76)
So both examples you gave in the last 10 minutes kind of had what you could consider noteworthy. Yes. Preambles. And so if there were a system in place whereby somebody could say, listen, this guy didn't exactly threaten us, but because we don't exactly have great protection here, maybe we should just keep an eye out because if he's coming back to visit his, it might not be for good reasons. And.

Like I said, it takes just then dropping his ID into a folder and by populating that folder with his ID, he becomes part of the system where then if he steps foot on any hospital system property, or even then maybe hospital systems get together and invest in this together so that they all get a discount on the set implementation and it's shared across the whole state's hospital systems. And then hell, maybe that's not a hard grant to write. You get the state to kick in for it for the love of Pete.

It's as it is with AI. tell you what I might make you do is offline jump on another call with me and just for fun. Just to blow your frickin mind. You bring a notepad of the technical solutions that are required. Because you know, you know, a soft target, a hard target start, start with a soft target and make the whole list of like, well, you got to have this.

You got to have this and if police show up, they got to be able to you make a list of what that is. And what I can tell you is if you and I spend an hour and a half, I could refine it into a rough. Requirements for an app. That would be the kind of thing you would sell to the hospital system. And like, so it's it's as a sort of technologist, I can tell you this, I know system exists, you know, I know. There's a.

database I can use as a repository. know system B exists. I know there's security cameras that can be used defensively. I know that there's access control systems. I know that there's mobile app proximity style things where like when I was saying when the cops run up to the exit of the entrance of the hospital, maybe it's their personal cell phone. Maybe it's not a key fob in a lock box or something.

Speaker 2 (38:35.052)
Maybe it's their personal cell phone that's been opted into a thing and they always have to have their Bluetooth on for situations like this. That would be enough to give them full blown access to every nook and cranny in a hospital. like everything I'm describing is technology that is like just waiting to be put together and into a secure black box platform and sold, you know, by somebody who's got a credible pedigree to sell it is what it sounds like to me.

But it's probably a lot of business fixes in general need to happen and like fingers crossed, knock on wood kind of thing that there's a bit of a revolution in healthcare and trying to drive more value to the consumer healthcare and trying to processes and partnerships that don't add value, it make things cumbersome and hopefully I think it'll be a mess for a year or two, but like,

I'd rather see it be real painful for a year or two and then fix it good. Right. Then like, we don't want to be disruptive. Let's keep tinkering with it for what? Two more decades? Like, I don't know about that. think like break it and fix it is almost it's plus from a technology perspective and like a management perspective, it's so much easier to build something than it is to change something. Right. For sure. Absolutely.

What do you, now what, we haven't mentioned it, but it seems like an obvious evolutionary conversation. What about some percentage of healthcare professionals carrying a certification where they've been to freaking jujitsu, knife fighting, gun training, all that stuff, you know, some criteria that are all recognized as, this is a dangerous person if they have to be, and that person.

makes probably eight grand more a year than their counterparts and is worth every freaking penny because all of sudden, for an extra quarter million a year, you can have lot of floors actively upgraded with a BMF who can handle business.

Speaker 1 (40:46.326)
it will there.

There's, and there's a lot of, it's shocking, but like a lot of these nurses, know, they have, some of them, you know, are great, but you know, a lot of them have very, very little situational awareness, even entering a room. And, you know, I'll give a shout out to Mel Cortez from TacBook. You know, we can try and link her in, but you know, she has some great situational training for nurses where like literally just helping them from the, from the room. Like the nurses don't think this, right? Like,

They have so much meds to pass at this time and they have four or five, six patients sometimes and they're trying to hit those, right? There's hard lines and they're the only ones who can pass these meds. Their aides can't do that. So they're rushing into a room and they're getting on the far side of the bed, you know, right? Because that's where the IV port is.

And they're doing math and they're reading little tiny labels and they're checking and double checking and triple checking because the real danger at hand for them at that moment is distributing the wrong information and hurting somebody directly or distributing the wrong prescription. So what they're doing in that moment is a very concentration intense. it's for the listener who thinks they're just dropping off pills, they're checking

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (42:07.534)
They're making a list and checking it twice like they were Santa Claus because the downside reaches criminalization if they make a mistake. mistake for a nurse can be criminal charges. So if you think they're running around just, you know, like the paper boys zipping past the room and slinging some pills in there, it's a very concentration intense practice to go room to room, just delivering medication or just hooking up IVs because it's

just the back and forth from clipboard or from tablet to label to tablet to label and scanning and checking and scanning and checking. They probably didn't check the corner of the room to see if there's a boogeyman back there.

Right, or they just, they're on, you what I would call like the metal of honor side of the bed, right? Like they're on the far side of the bed where, right? Like there is no way out if this dude hops up, right? But they're just, like you said, you know, they're trying to pass meds. They're trying to not kill anyone. They're trying to make sure there's not any mistakes. And yeah, the level of complexity of some of these IV bags, you know, this one has to be in this bag. This bag has to be higher than that one. This is like, this is, I, I,

Nurses don't get enough credit, man. And then they're quarterbacking the whole thing, right? Like imaging's asking, can they come get this guy for that procedure, right? They have lab, like, you know, we glorified docs and I mean, they're brilliant. I'll give it to them. But man, like the quarterback is the nurse, right? Like they're keeping it all moving. And so, yeah, so for them to get to on the wrong side of the bed, and this guy's been fine yesterday, right? No issues. And then boom, that's it, snaps.

Right. now all of a sudden they can't get out. so, yeah. And then that's where like, there's also, talk, we started to go down technology, you know, there's wearable devices that can, you know, designate like, Hey, this is, and some of them have two buttons, right? Like one is like, Hey, you could, you guys could start my way. I could use some help start me security. And then the other is like, you know, crap. Right. Like this is, this is major issue. Like these, there, there are simple devices there that we can, we can start to, and the cool thing about those is they're not saying anything. They're not saying like,

Speaker 1 (44:10.35)
Like, hey, I train my staff just to say like, you know, my primary hospital is like a smaller, you know, a little more of a family feel to a smaller bed house facility. And I train them just to get on the radio and be like, Hey, can Matt come by and give me a hand? Right. They, even if I'm not the one working, right. Like they know the day shift crew knows, knows me, right. Subtle ways to get that in. But that, I think that's where like people like Mel and training these nurses, they have no perception or awareness of like the room and like.

Hey, when is it safe for me to be there? Right? Like, what do I look for? What are those, you know, what's an indication that this person might be headed towards violence? You know, where am I safe to be? Can I get another nurse just to watch his hands or an aide to come in and watch their hands to at least alert me while I do this complex procedure? that would be step one before the BJJ route, you know?

Well, or even, I keep going back to, we're definitely discussing a specific classification that is existing right now in some sort of limbo purgatory situation that's completely inappropriate for them and completely inappropriate for the staff who's managing that, that is a healthcare staff, when the subject and the situation itself is a hybrid of, what would the word be, of,

potential combustible, just it's a potential combustible healthcare, mental health slash criminal law. Stu, all the data is to force.

I'll go ahead.

Speaker 2 (45:52.556)
And that person is sitting in the middle of one, two, three normal patients to the left, one, two normal patients to the right. Then there's another dude who might be a fricking firecracker. And then there's a bunch of normal patients. So it seems to like this whole conversation I've been picturing just like, boy, wouldn't it be nice if in every County there was just sort of a middle sized facility that was designed for this class of people.

Cause then you wouldn't necessarily have to have this heightened tension in the hospital 24 seven. And you know, basically what I'm saying is, you know, expand or specialize. I'm not saying expand. I'm saying specialize. If there's a real number of these people, if you accommodate them in a specialized way,

it's not super difficult because what's difficult to do is, is to manage situations that come up one out of every seven or one out of every nine. That's very inefficient to switch from mode A to mode B midstream of your workflow process that might or might not require you to involve other human resources and or resources in general, even technology, as opposed that you're doing two jobs at that point and you're requiring two tool sets and two support systems.

And so all I'm saying is you might find more if you're that if this hospital system is owned by a hedge fund, maybe there's math to be done there that says, you know how much money we save by breaking off a specialized like what would be the equivalent of one one hallway on on our current hospital that was dedicated to this class of hybrid patient slash suspect.

slash mental patient slash emotion potential. Normal person who's just an emotion. Because this is so in this setting.

Speaker 1 (47:50.246)
And there's nurses who thrive on there's patients who are and would be willing to do that. Are you, you may have froze up there on me.

You froze up.

Speaker 2 (48:05.068)
Okay, you froze up on me. I don't know how long you froze up. It will have recorded my my diatribe in total. Well, I think shit. What was I saying? what?

So

Speaker 1 (48:18.094)
I there are nurses who will thrive in this environment. There are nurses who love the behavioral health side of it, right? And they would do that. these are the nurses who are much more naturally inclined towards situational awareness and knowing when to ask for help and not. you know, I know there's like-

your regular workflow. Like it's so much less energy and angst expended if your workflow is what you expect it to be and it's not bouncing between these two sets of patient types that really require you to do two different roles, probably potentially requires different technologies, different support staff, different conversations. And so to jump back and forth between those is really inefficient. So that's what I was getting at was like maybe a hedge fund guy who owns a hospital system looks at that and says,

If we had just a hallway worth of building with these specialized nurses who, that's just their job. Like I said, we're not throwing them curve balls. That's just their job. That becomes a much more efficient solution. And so all of a sudden these nurses over here are far more productive, far more healthy, like far less exhausted, maybe less turnover even at the end of the day because of the stress level of a nurse, what does this hybrid class of patient

What do they contribute to the pie of just stress? Does this fraction of patients contribute 80 % of your stress? I'd throw money that for some nurses it's in that neighborhood, maybe more.

Absolutely. And one thing where I don't want to paint an inaccurate picture is the other side of this is these aren't all patients on a hold for mental illness. The level of entitlement, right? We became, healthcare is a business, And in every hospital, right, you can pick which service or which company you want to go with. And so as such, know, scores became the Holy grail.

Speaker 1 (50:13.952)
And so we, you know, we, our nurses serve them now and, know, what would you like to eat? And can I get you coffee? And, know, it's, there's all these other elements to where, like, I think we've promoted these, these people who are just like so entitled and so pompous and arrogant and just so demanding of, our nurses. And, know, these are, these are people, maybe these are, I mean, it can be anything from, I'm probably, it sounds like I'm describing like wealthy affluent. I'm not, I'm describing like very needy people who are just not healthy.

So they're in and out of the hospitals, left and right. They're not following through with their antibiotics when they leave or whatever it is. And so they're back again, or maybe they're IV drug users. And man, the way they talk to nurses, the hardest part of my job is checking my tongue when I see these extremely entitled people. My wife used to say to me when our kids were little, she'd be like, Matt, babies need insurance. Don't rattle off the cuff and say to these people,

you know, potentially what you want to say. But so there's just these level of entitlement and I know we're getting into much bigger issues now, but I say that to say like, these nurses might go from an old guy with dementia to a highly entitled IV drug user.

Well, it's a precursor. It's worth mentioning because it's a precursor to the types of incidents that we're saying puts people into a certain class of patients that draws so much energy and angst. Like entitlement or anything that you're creating friction, you're mistreating staff, you're being difficult in that process and you're doing it in a way that's not in good faith. Like I can see being difficult if in your heart you think a loved one's being underserved or you're being underserved or they're not listening to you. Like that's all fair.

But if it's like what you're describing, it's an entirely different thing that leads to conflict, that leads to the potential where you now have a patient who's creating a different service type, a different workload, a different anxiety level, and a different support requirement. And so it's from a business perspective in that sense to avoid it in any way is brilliant and to address somehow even

Speaker 2 (52:28.076)
the socialization within a emergency room, waiting room. Like I'm sure you could hire a bunch of your clinical psychologists who could have an amazing conversation about how a hospital emergency room is just how it's set up and how things are, it's almost a hospitality conversation. It's almost like when the bart, you walk into a crowded establishment, bartender can't possibly get to you. There's no chance.

but he makes eye contact with you or she makes eye contact with you and says, I know you're alive. Clearly you see the situation I'm in. There's not a possibility you're gonna hear from me in 10 minutes, but you're on the list now. That gets in front of everything. If there's a way you can, and I say that is a hospitality tactic.

but as somebody walks into an emergency room or begins communicating with emergency room staff, if there's a way to disarm them, it's worth doing for your own good, for your own downstream workflow, for your own downstream human resource requirements associated with each patient type. If you can disarm this person, if you can be the bartender who makes eye contact with them and says, you know, we're here to help.

We're not perfect as you can see, because we're perfect. You wouldn't even be waiting. But boy, there's, there's ways to get ahead of, and in your field, it would be called what I'm talking, I keep calling it hospitality. It's deescalation. It's, it's a preemptive environmental buffer to not create a situation where you then have to use step two deescalation, interfacing conversation, you know,

choreography maybe to make sure you're in between somebody and something else. All of that is de-escalation step two as far as I'm concerned. You can, by the very environment you create and the very dialogue you initiate, de-escalate potential situations. And I'm sure that's not top of mind based on how many other things they have pulling at them. But again, in a perfect world.

Speaker 1 (54:46.614)
It was a simple, a simple example. We're coming out of one of the worst flu seasons in 15 years and hands down the busiest I've seen ERs in, you know, about 10 years of, you know, working in healthcare based police departments. And one of the ways they kept everything moving is they literally just put planted beds in halls. They call them hall beds and, know, they can get them back, could draw your blood, could shoot a chest x-ray.

could run some tests, right? And there were patients who were clearing ERs within, you know, an hour that otherwise they'd been waiting for who knows how long. and you know, the, the interesting thing was the more experienced nurses were so much better at, you know, selling that of just saying like, Hey, you know what, so we can get everything started. We're going to get you back to a bed. And you know, some of them, if they were truly sick, yeah, they then got moved into a full side bed, but if they weren't boom, they're out the door.

You know, how those patients, it was interesting to watch how those patients perceive those off of just how the nurse sold it to them, right? And just how the nurse presented it. And it was true. I mean, it really was to get them out and keep them from having to sit in our ER with a bunch of legitimately sick people. so, you know, and we can do, that's what you're saying is we can do the same thing, whether it's mental health, all these things, like how we talk to nurses, you know, or how, how staff talk to patients from security to nursing.

to labbed all of it, makes such an impact. It really does.

There's a great tool and I use it, I recommend it to podcast hosts, but it's also just an incredible tool for conversation and for sure de-escalation. there's this former FBI hostage negotiator, you've probably seen me as a big media presence, Chris Voss. And so I...

Speaker 2 (56:49.794)
subscribe to the Masterclass app and did his went through his Masterclass presentations and there's a few in there that are just unbelievable.

for, you know, ones like mirroring. And not like you sit like they do it, but it's if somebody, if somebody's letting it out, you know, maybe an angry, frustrated person, they're letting it out, they're letting it out. And the last thing they said was, and you guys keep changing the prices stuff, I get a bill later and it's always a, it's always a disaster. Mirroring would be for then, you know, maybe the billing person at the front desk to say,

It's always a disaster. She, what she, what else is she going to do at that point to solve the problem? So she simply takes the very last thought and says, it's always a disaster. What does that do? Right back on you, sir. You seem upset. What have you got? What have you got? have you got? it's also, I use it as, think it's a great host technique. So it's like, if somebody's talking about something they're passionate about, just take the last thing they said and, know, back to them. Like, you're so you.

when you were, you know, military, that you took the medical track. Interesting. You know, and then just hope you talk for 10 more minutes at that point. But it just occurred to me that if you took the two or three sections of that negotiations course on masterclass, it probably total about 20 minutes. The three sections that I think are totally applicable. And like just something like that in the

Right.

Speaker 2 (58:28.686)
in the holster of someone who has to deal with people who might be teetering on the edge of falling into this difficult combustible patient class. That's legit 20 to 24 minutes. it's, it's things like that have to, cause I'm, like you mentioned before you're quick to like call out BS or it's hard to hold your time. I'm the same way. Like, but I also like,

Well said.

Speaker 2 (58:58.444)
I produce podcasts, I do stand-up comedy. I'm not a lawyer. I don't have to hold my tongue. That's my client's problem. I'm allowed to come on a podcast and say preposterous things. don't even have a Juris Doctorate. But those tools are very effective when you want to have a super productive conversation in terms of drawing out information, in terms of letting the other person feel heard to the point where

they almost realize they're arguing with air. They're not really making a point. They are letting it out. so it's sometimes you doing that can be enough to depressurize that which would later combust kind of thing. it's a many layered cake. You got to bake in terms of this. I mean, you're talking about from sociology to technology.

the way to manage, you know, because heck, if hospitality operations have to think this way, for darn sure, places with a security concern are gonna have to think about everything from the sociology to the technology, if you wanna fully address the issue you're bringing to the table. And I would proffer, this gets worse before it gets better. I've never in my life had more disgust coming out of the COVID.

I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27.36)
situation like I, if and the people I would find fault with aren't the kind of people I'm even going to meet in a hospital, by the way, when I'm getting treatment. you can't tell people the sky is green for three years to downstream like.

Right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51.374)
Yeah. And I think a lot of them don't realize the level of mistrust. You know, I try and paint that picture for staff and, you know, like a few, less than a mile from the hospital I work at in small town USA, there was a Luigi flag flying from Mario Brothers. you know, I had to, took a picture and I was sharing it with our staff. said, that movie came out in 2023. It's a brand new flag.

you know, major Super Mario brother fans, right? These are people who don't trust you. They don't like you. They don't respect you. Right. And what's unfortunate is the nurse at the bedside is just trying to do her job, but because of decisions at much, much higher levels, they, that, that is like overlaid on them. And I have to try and help them understand. Like, you know, it's, it's hard, but you've gone into a profession where there's a lot of people who don't respect you anymore. And,

You know, they'd rather talk to like their chiropractor or their, whatever. And it's that that's where we're at. And so, you know, just trying to help them understand, like, unfortunately, you don't have the same clout and we kind of got to.

And for me personally, so I've thought a lot about it and for me, here's what I know is now if I go to a doctor, I don't know. If I'm in an emergency room, I don't know. Who are the dirty cops in here? Because my issue is like, there were people actively doing harm to people by following what was the CDC narrative, for example. And, and

without going into conspiracy theories and relying strictly on things that are now like congressional data. this was, we had the worst outcome of any civilized country and spent more money than any civilized country. So I don't, you know, anymore, I'm no longer hesitant to share my opinion. Even though this conversation, for example, this clip would have gotten me literally a lifetime ban from LinkedIn three years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02.03)
If I put the clip up where I said what I'm saying now, which is that the CDC made mistakes from start to finish and we had the worst outcome of any civilized nation, that would have gotten me thrown off. It did. I got banned from LinkedIn permanently and could only rejoin on a new computer through a VPN because I said, I beat COVID in two days with a leave. Can we open the country back up? It's my post. I got a lifetime banned from a company that Bill Gates has an interest in.

Right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31.072)
shortly before he sold his vaccine stocks and later said, I was really just heavy people and old people. We misread the situation, but that was the climate. And so I had an appointment to get vaccinated for COVID. This is, they changed the definition of vaccine, which a lot of people are unaware even took place in 2021, but I was gonna get the vaccine. They actually talked me out of it.

Like they started giving away cheeseburgers. Right. get vaccinated. Yeah. Started calling you racist if you weren't vaccinated. And I was like, well, that doesn't sound like the strongest argument. And so they, they unsold me on the vaccine. wasn't that I started out like, I'm not listening to any, it was, are they giving away cheeseburgers? Why did they change the definition of vaccine and remove the word immunity? Like.

Yeah, for sh-

Speaker 2 (01:04:30.688)
And why do people call me crazy when I point that out? Like, look it up. So you change the definition of vaccine while you're trying to sell me a vaccine. That's the one time you're going to get me asking questions about a vaccine. So. My issue back to the bad cops is it's it's seemed awful quiet in a room, seemed awful quiet in a room, and I'm no genius. I'm no biology major. Say I can't pronounce it.

That's how dumb I am. And I know that natural immunity works. I know that natural immunity isn't, isn't racist. Like the stuff they were saying about like you were, it just didn't match up. so I'm there were lots of good healthcare professionals raising their hands saying this is preposterous. I did not come across, and if they did, I think they were probably fired. Those people are saints. The people in the military who got fired.

Saints. those are, that's critical thought. And even if they had been wrong, respect to you for having what it takes to stand up in the face of the most expensive propaganda campaign ever funded by taxpayer dollars. So I always have to look around and I almost want to pull them. How many of you vaccinated a healthy person under 12 years of age during COVID? How many of you

going back to what we-

Speaker 2 (01:05:58.382)
thought people who weren't vaccinated shouldn't be able to go into a restaurant or a gym or, know, like those are the questions I have for my doctor because that to me is the new litmus test of is this person capable of critical thought or is this person literally going to do whatever their Pfizer rep tells them to do like a good little boy.

And I have to wonder if our, our flu numbers right now are, you know, relation to all, you know, us not being out, us not, you know, immune system, not having to work, right. And the rebound of that, you know.

don't think that's even complicated math, what you're proposing. And it's old news in other countries. We're the last company to critically examine COVID. We're the last country to do studies or even allow or fund study. Denmark's been funding COVID safety studies and having the real conversations since like 2021. The United States, where

80 % of television is funded with pharmaceutical money. Wasn't having that conversation. So it, it, that distrust, what a waste. Like it's just a pure waste that I now have to go in there and spend time polling your staff before I can decide if you're going to be my primary care doctor. I want to know if you're an idiot or not. Right. Or, I want to know if you're a quiz.

or that's essentially, you know, those are the Jews who worked with the Nazis. Because to me, if you're a health care provider and you're taking your orders from people who say natural immunity doesn't work, you're bad cop. So I eat a lot of garlic now. hear it's, you know, it's antimicrobial. I just try not to get sick, so I don't have to interview anybody. But that's, and that's more time than I needed to put into, but I mean, again,

Speaker 2 (01:08:03.73)
I was trying to have a conversation two years ago and getting kicked off a platform. So forgive me 10 minutes now of digging into it because that's that all happened. But I don't think it's hard to regain people's trust. I really don't. Because as long as you face there'll be challenges. If you face the next challenge with some transparency, you don't yell at people who want to do math instead of talk about big numbers like that was the other thing during COVID.

I'm a million this half a million that yeah, but if you do long division by how many people are in the country and it's that's you know, there was a hashtag for a few months math is racist during COVID and I think that was sad to do it. like, oh shot all of a sudden math is racist too. But it was because you weren't allowed to talk math. had to talk big grotesque numbers during COVID. And again,

Right. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00.04)
One challenge doesn't have to be some big thing, but if whoever's in charge is just honest with us and transparent, I think I'd be right back on board. Like, you know what? The tracks are back in the right direction. I don't think it's got to be some horrible thing to, because you have to interact with healthcare on the daily. So if, if it just kind of gets more honest and more transparent from pricing and onward,

people be less pissed off. bet people are less pissed off. think fewer of them show up two years later with a handgun, a duffel bag full of zip ties. From the inside or from the outside, a disgruntled patient or former employee, because that employee, you know, half their disgruntled nature probably comes from patients who are disgruntled, just rubbing off on them. Like that friction, that friction, that friction.

Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56.152)
Yeah. And, you know, there's a, there's a whole field of this now that's starting to get more and more involved in healthcare in behavioral threat assessments where, you know, there's, there's different science-based tools, you know, that are, they, they're using, you know, it comes out of, ultimately it comes out of the FBI's behavioral analysis unit. And there's, you know, different organizations, association of threat assessment professionals.

There's certifications people are getting and I just had a great conversation yesterday with Mark Concordia from Atrium Health. And I think they should start following guys like him, you know, where he's essentially, uh, career law enforcement and has been building out tools in, uh, in healthcare for, you know, assessing these types of people, because there's both the threat assessment side and the threat management. The threat assessment is like, you know, what's this person's propensity towards

targeted violence, you know, afterwards, you know, do they, do they have the ability to do it? May they do that? and then there's the threat management side of like checking back in on these people. And so you had, you you alluded to that, like the sociological side as well, but there's this also psychological side that's advancing rapidly with just super practical tools that can be put in place. And so I think that's, that will be,

even higher end, right? Like we talked about good police, we talked about good technology. I think we're even going to get into these threat assessment teams, getting broader and broader roped into healthcare where that that will be the future of workplace violence. You know, 10 years from now or whatever, whatever it may be.

What's the coolest technology you've seen that you think is just a killer application that everybody should have in a perfect world?

Speaker 1 (01:11:48.024)
You know, it gets knocked, but I still think just some of these newer weapon screening tools that can get a crowd into a stadium rapidly and assess these people for weapons. mean, it's stuff, the game, you're on this continuum of, know, if, if, if it's going off too much, right. Like then the person scanning has to get in there and get their hands dirty. Right. So if you, if you, if you make it too sensitive,

then there's kind of like, right, there's staff and what you can afford to pay these types of people. But I still, I still think there's a place for it. Just like plain and simple at some of these entrances, you know, whether that's like an more incognito tool to alert to like, this, there's possibly a weapon here to where security can hunt this person down and follow up with them. But just some type of weapon detection.

You're adding

Speaker 1 (01:12:45.81)
I still think there's just a basic place for it. And, you know, we would be much better off in some of these facilities as far as because there's also people who just walk in and see it and they're like, they go back to your car, right? And they leave.

Sure. You could probably put one up, not even plug it in, and it would do some percentage of your work for you for sure. 100%. Like putting a cop car, an empty cop car on the median of the highway.

Yeah, I mean, I think low hanging fruit at this point would be welcomed by most working in healthcare, know, security.

Okay, well there's our first product idea. I'm going to design a fake weapon detection system and just be like, everybody who doesn't have a big budget should have one of these right away. This is your cop car on the median. Right. You know.

Yeah, unmanned, yep. It would help, it truly would.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40.886)
Yeah, it's, you know, it's somewhat of a, or clearly a, you know, it's not an upbeat topic, but with the state of technology, it does become a fascinating and, you know, sort of boundless conversation in what you can apply these days creatively. And I'm sure, I'm sure you're sort of in the nooks and crannies of that market well enough to know that there's opportunities that I haven't even thought of in terms of how people get processed or work through a hospital.

that create opportunities for identification or scanning or screening, especially if they're making their way in towards sensitive areas or areas where there are people who are in a state where they can't defend themselves. That's another thing is like you've got a class of people in that building where, you know, if you've got whatever the count is, there's X amount of people in that building who literally can't do so much as raise their hands to keep you from harming them. And that alone.

Regardless of what the propensity is for conflict, disgruntled employees or disgruntled family members, know, that alone to me warrants a heightened level of protection. If you've got someone who isn't capable in any way, or form of defending themselves, you are 100 % obligated to make sure that person has an appropriate level of protection from that.

ever becoming a conversation.

You know, and there's even simple things, you know, we, talk about in response to active shooter courses with nurses, right? Can you know those hospital beds are heavy, right? If, if nothing else, if we have a patient, we can't get out, can't get to safety, you know, can an aid stay in there with her or a family member push the bed in front of the door and put the breakdown, right? You know, these people who are, you know, active shooters, right? Like they probably have somebody they're specifically targeting first.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39.406)
And then after that, they're just going for a body count. And if that's them, right. You know, if there's any resistance, they're probably just moving on because it's a numbers game and they know how they have limited time. So that's one of the things that I teach staff. Like if there's a patient who we can't get out, we can't move, can you put her, are you able to move her bed? And some of them they can't, right? Like some of them are so complex that it, that's a little, that might be on the scope, but a lot of like you just traditional med surge doors open in.

and beds can go in front of doors, you can put the breakdown, right? Like right there, we've saved that patient's life. So I still think there's some low hanging fruit where there's part of our industry and police and security and healthcare where I think they're over reliant on technology or they just want to like complain that they don't have certain technology, right? When, what could you be doing to like train your staff? And I think back to my military days, you know, right? Like I got to a special forces team, like we had all kinds of cool tools.

But man, you should have seen what I had in training. You know what I mean? Like a map, a compass, like some bubble gum. You know what I mean? Like, and that was, you know, that was about it. Right. Like there was no GPS, right. But, but that, that forms you in a different way. Right. Like that, that sets you up to where like, Hey man, if nothing else, I, have a map and compass. can get to where I need to go. Right. And so I do think some of the industry's hung up right now. Like.

overly reliant and, and healthcare and, you know, one of our, technology. one of the things I wrote was like, Hey, this is somewhat like you're reconstructing the plane in flight, right? Like, so the plane's already flying. You got to rebuild it in mode. And so yeah, every year make specific targeted asks based on a risk assessment and not just some cool sales rep, like, right. Like you looked at the whole picture, you did a risk assessment or paid someone who's better than you to do it. And then.

You know, from that risk assessment, you prioritize the top two or three things. Ask for that each year in your budget cycles, you know, build a good case. Don't go in there with too much hate in your heart. Like a lot out of the struggle with, and, and then spend the rest of the year training, training your staff, right? Like a lot can be alleviated just by training some situational awareness. Don't be afraid to call us, get your guys out there rounding. Like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59.534)
Probably not as complex as we're making it. And like you said, within a few years, just like healthcare can probably get some of their trust back. You know, I think police and security can gain credibility, gain trust with these admins who maybe right now can't afford to give what, what we think we need. Right. But, but can you continue to make those asks? And over time, like, you know, think a lot of us are seeing improvements in the places we're working.

Man, I'd love to see nurses and doctors be able to get some kind of certification and just be peppered through the building with concealed carry until they've hit a 10-hour shift and they've got to put their gun in the locker or something like that. You're not pulling after on an 18-hour shift. Within reason. And I think the only thing I can come up with would be hours.

I think you might have an argument with perhaps even in a civil case if somebody who's been on the job more than 10 or 12 hours does anything. But even just talking about it brings up considerations like that that are absolutely need to be discussed because there's situationally, there's not a lot of industries where you put people on crazy shifts in big blocks like that.

It's actually funny that that's one of the first things I think of, which yeah, it'd be great if doctors and nurses could get certified and could make that section of the hospital is pretty well hardened because we got Susie at days and Bob at nights and Guillermo's mornings, whatever, and all three of them are certified XYZ. That's neat. But again,

Yeah, not if Guillermo's been working 16 hours. Guillermo needs to put his gun in his locker at that point.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55.126)
I checking out some of, yeah, there's a reason they ground pilot at 14 hours.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking actually. Yep.

But yeah, I mean, think some of Mel Cortez's stuff from TacBook would be a great place that's simple and cost effective for a lot of people to start in it. And it starts just with like square one situational awareness and, you know, grows and adds a lot from there. That would be, you know, huge, huge for a lot of staff. And I think we need to start integrating some of that into these nursing schools. Like, you know, these kids come out and they, they just have no.

I don't know if they really realize what they're walking into. I don't, think we're doing, we're doing them a disservice to not train them on this element, as well, you know, before they're on rotation that like, Hey, we have them thinking of where am I in the room? Can I get away? You know, I mean, we, we have behavior dedicated behavioral health rooms where I have to like repeatedly remind staff not, they have these computers. That's like a workstation on wheels. call it a wow. Kind of funny. They will back.

themselves into behavioral health rooms so they can type as they give their meds. And this wow is blocking their egress from the room. Right. And yeah, this patient, yeah, you know what? I get that vibe. They're probably not a threat too, but you're still repping it out when all you have to do is flip this thing around. And now it becomes a barrier between the two of you. Now it's, now it's aiding your, your safety. so a lot of low hanging fruit from just some basic situational awareness that I'd love to see in nursing schools.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28.81)
If situational awareness was constant, you could avoid 80 % of the technology investment that you and I are talking about because you're certainly correct. That's, don't know. And I think, I don't know if it's generational, like, or, because I'm not law enforcement, but like, don't, like, I don't, I don't go to the mall and slip on shoes. Right.

Because if there's an issue, I'm going to lose a shoe and I'm not going to be able to run and I'm not going be able to run defensively or offensively. it's if, you know, in a restaurant, like, yeah, I, I'm looking at exits. I'm looking at people. I want to know if there's going to be a problem before it's, I'll be the first person for my friends to be like, what are you talking about?

Right. This is fine. Let's just stay here. And I'd be the one like, no, I think there's about one in a 100 chance something bad going to happen here tonight. And not worth one in a hundred is enough for me. Yeah. Like one in a hundred is straight up enough for me. Right. They can't argue with that because it probably is one in a hundred. And if that's my line, that's my line. But I'm like, no, looking around, if you can't read and I suppose I'm just, I don't know. I suppose I feel like if anybody

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55.542)
wants to they can read a room maybe there's people who can look at everything around and really not take anything away but I'm very concerned about things I can't control in an environment that isn't an environment of my own.

It goes back to what you brought up very well, like the level of complexity of what they're doing, the meds they're slinging. You know, they're doing math, they're checking the five rights, all these different things. And yeah, it's as simple as slowing them down and like helping them read the room becomes step one in reducing some of this.

You can get some cool acronyms or something. Cool acronyms and a checklist, bro. Put that on a PDF. We'll sell that to other hospital systems for 1995, a copy. I'm sure you're right. We spent the vast majority of this conversation talking about, you could install this and you could build that. And really, if you were able to give them the luxury of

Yep, done.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58.178)
dot in the I's and cross in the T's as they go about their workflow. You probably wouldn't need to do much of that at all.

for all that technology, right? We talked about situations where, you know, you have people on different shifts. You have people coming back at different times. You know, I'm for all that. I think where my profession could be better is when, you know, I think we need to be each year very articulately, articulately, I can't even say the word, but making targeted asks for these upgrades, right? I mean, I think it's important. I think we should. I mean, I think they,

round out the system where I see us like missing a lot of low hanging fruit is just that training with staff on all different, you know, I mean, these hospitals get hit with all kinds of, you know, whether it's, you know, power outages and tornadoes, right? Like this stuff, this stuff's all happening, right? And so, you know, ultimately like, you know, if you think through in the military, like in basic training, you're working through like eight different battle drills. I used to have it memorized by like a deliberate

task, you know, rapidly executed without applying a deliberate decision making process. There's something along those lines, right? Where you just, if X happens, you do Y, right? And so, you know, a lot of that happens through repetition, through rehearsals, right? Like when I was in the military, man, the Afghanis hated us. Like they, they hated the amount of rehearsals we would make those guys run through. But then, man, when we got on the objective, we maybe only had to be there 45 minutes and we were home.

you know, play an Xbox, you know, that was my later deployments. We were doing that in my early deployments, you know, but, but in later deployments, like, yeah, you know, because of those rehearsals. And so that's, that's where I think like, I'm still for all that technology. think there's a place I think we need to prioritize it because there are those situations like the Bronx, Lebanon, right? Where it could be, could be two years till he come till that person comes back. Right. And I need all the help I can get. You know I mean? Like remembering some of.

Speaker 1 (01:26:05.134)
these individuals, plus, you know, we're getting more and more built on systems. So it's multiple campuses, right? And so, you know, I'm talking to places with 27 facilities or 27 medical facilities, right? And so, you know, if somebody's short staff, you could be getting floated to a different campus that you've never worked. These pieces are much more plug and play as the system grows, right? So I could go to work at campus X and get sent to campus Y, right? I don't know.

I might know some of their knuckle, draggers or knuckleheads, but I don't know all of them. Right. And so I do think these, can build in a lot of redundancy with technology. So I'm still for it. just, I think my industry can get hung up and miss the training opportunities in between those.

Yeah, it would be preventative. would be it would deescalate like we're saying that Yes, you want an airbag in your car. You don't have to use it, right? Yeah, great I don't have to put a new airbag in and fix dense. So yeah, do I want one? Yeah for sure But I'd rather train the driver to hit the brakes and turn Yeah, yeah, that's what

Like I'll have old school, maybe not so much in the healthcare industry, but I'll have old school, old school, like, security experts. You know, if I put out, you know, I started the, what I write on LinkedIn is because for probably six or seven years, I've helped with a class for nurses on how to respond to active shooters. And I, and I, like, I sent 50 % of it trying to prevent them. Right. Because I I'll say this all the time. If I ever prevent an active shooter, it's because I encouraged a nurse to speak up.

Right. Because they know their department, they know their coworkers, they know their patients, they know the grievances, right? Like empowering them to know what to look for is one of the most important things I do personally. And my wife has been on me as a nurse to say like, Hey, you should offer this to other. Right. And so for now, I don't have any online courses. I've just been putting it out on LinkedIn for free, just to see what, what resonates, what helps, you know, test the curriculum. And, you know, what, what I'm seeing is totally forgot.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12.248)
where I was going with that. Hopefully you can edit this crap out.

Well, I gotta be honest with you, I would pitch you on online courses because if there's one thing, if you even just, if you just started recording your ideas into your iPhone, which is what I do now, I don't do anything without recording it. And then I drop it into an AI program that helps me summarize it, break it down, find the primary keywords, find the primary takeaways.

And then I'll usually drop it into another piece of AI that I've sort of pre-formatted to say, hey, when I bring you information, I want you to spit out this. And so I run all my, my notes become a living thing then kind of, and ideas evolve on themselves. What I recommend for people who have any inclination, I've got a friend who wrote a, is writing a book. I'm like, it's already written. said, read it.

Record it, read it and record it into a phone. And let's have AI turn it into a course. And so for you personally, like if you're interested in taking a worthy message, like let's take that offline. Like I'm either gonna be able to help you, totally turn you off to the idea when I present you with what I think it looks like, or B,

Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:29:41.144)
give you a great idea and help you find the right resources to do it. it's probably not me kind of thing. But I know there's stepping stones that are available today that weren't even available a year ago for looking at it from the chair of, okay, you as a consultant, great, you probably sell a ton of this stuff out there. You as, within this system, this could put, this is the type of process using AI.

that would allow you to create standardized workflow type modules. For example, that communicate various parts of your outline based on building A in the system, building B in the system, and that you've almost got like, curriculum is a weird word to use, but like, I'm gonna be in that building.

I should jump on the thing and run through the modules for that building so that I don't waste five minutes getting in or finding my place or doing this or that. Like getting in front, it's for that, from the perspective of that person who's being transferred from one building or one campus to another, that's the bartender looking at them in the eye saying, hey, I can't get to you right this second, but here's what, this will get you through.

for the next 10 minutes, like welcome to the bar. So it's like almost the same thing. Somebody in your organization doesn't really need a personal person greeting them at the door and saying, I know it's your first time here. We're short staffed. It's been a mess. It could just be the de facto thing on the company intranet or the company app or something. It's like, are you in this location? These are your modules. Are you in this location? These are your modules.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41.381)
that's good, yeah

That's awesome. Yeah. And if you want, I can finish that thought too. I definitely would love to follow up with you offline on, you know.

Finish that thought, finish that thought.

Well, yes. So some of these old school security guys will be like, there's really no business in teaching staff, like run a and fight. Like it's, not their job, right? Like we should create such a secure environment, right? That they don't have to do that. And man, I wish I could, I wish.

That's a model. Yeah, that's a model.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14.53)
However, right, this person could walk out of the hospital and be at the grocery store tonight and walk into an active shooter. Right. And so, you know, to me, there's still a place for training these people. And I think it's also like looking at like, you know, what are, what are a lot of our heart issues, right? Like, you know, we're, we're overweight, we're unhealthy. We don't eat, right. We don't exercise. We don't control stress. We, we don't sleep enough, right. All those things, right. Well, does that mean we stopped training paramedics? Right. Because.

You know, do we just dump, you know, the EMS system because realistically what would solve a lot of those issues is addressing those other issues. no, you know, I think there's still a place for, for that profession, right? think there's still a place for these emergencies, right? We still, we still want them able to respond. So I think we can look at address those bigger picture issues, while also training staff that like, Hey, X happens, right? Like here's your battle drill, right? Like.

run, hide or fight or, know, and there's, there's, I'm not sold to any certain model, but like,

I am just I'm sold to the model where all the staff is invested and all the staff is trained. You know why? Yeah. I bet your retention goes up if if you're the hospital with that model where where person a knows person B knows what they're doing. If I've got my back turned and something pops off. Everybody I work with can handle. Their their process, their piece of the process to lock this place down. They know where they're going, whatever to whatever.

They know the

Speaker 2 (01:33:49.006)
I'll tell you right now, that's the model versus this place versus you having detectors and like a squad at every entrance door. Cause that's the, that's really the other option. And that's fine. If it's so protected that nobody ever has a worry, but like, how are people even going to get in the emergency room? If it, cause you're promising me everybody trained is such a high level and, it's still such a confidence in the culture that you're not going to get, if it's just, you're, you're within a walled city.

And don't worry, the ex special forces guys at every entrance to the hospital are going to keep you safe. That's great. That's actually pretty comforting, but it's not fail safe.

The best nurse managers I work with continue to, they integrate this in their quarterly meetings. They integrate this in their, their huddles, like the morning huddles, right? That they do throughout the week. Like they keep this stuff at, at the forefront. so they, they hold us accountable. That's like, yeah, you're right. You know what we should, we should review, you know, how to use the chairs to get patients down the stairs, right? Like it has been a minute, you know? And so,

Yeah, I think there's, there's some opportunity there within, within security, within police to be proactively training. And also with these nurse, like the best nurse managers, they're keeping it on the forefront and they're forcing their staff to train on this. And, it makes all the difference when, when things happen.

I'd be less anxious and I think I'd be more interested in staying in a hospital system that had that culture than being like, my friend's like, oh, you should come work in our hospital system. Or I'm like, well, everybody on mine is really like, we have a whole security protocol and everybody knows what they're doing. Do you guys do that? If they're like, no, be like, I'm good with a commute that's 15 minutes longer.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44.438)
Like that would, for a dude, but I check rooms and situational awareness matters to me. That would be night and day in terms of how I value my employment at that place versus a place that didn't have that culture.

I work with people who at various campuses, who I believe the, we have better, the city I'm in, we have better police and security than our competitors in my opinion. And, as a whole, both training and just people and personnel, and it keeps staff, their staff who could go make more potentially elsewhere, but they stay because of the, the, the culture of safety and the priority of well-trained, police.

And while we could upgrade our technology, I'm sure it does help with staff retention, undoubtedly.

what have we missed?

I think we, we still need to, you know, I just hope people stay up on this, this story, this UPMC story. hope people, cause at some point they're going to have to come out with the details, right? Like, you know, there's been very little on it, but I do hope, you know, your listeners, like they hunt this down. We, they stay up on this, this story because I, I'm afraid this is more on the front end.

Speaker 1 (01:37:05.736)
of what's to come, you know, other countries, you know, have been down this road, like, you know.

Well, any soft target right now, think, and again, not to be hyperbolic or and I certainly don't want to talk politics, but there's enough people that we don't know in this country right now that they could you could orchestrate 300 school shootings on the same day. Yeah. You could orchestrate 300 hospital shootings on the same day. My concern for what we're facing in the next decade has never been greater because we have

I want to say the Godaways are 2 million. wants people we know are absolutely terror affiliated or in the thousands. How many people? 9, 11, 19, you know, counting the CIA and the FBI. 19. Right. You're telling me 2000 terrorist affiliated people running around this country can't do 300 hospitals in a day.

And that's a corporate nextel account and a bunch of guns is what you need to pull that off. Everybody get your walkie talkies. Think your watches like it's it's to be considerate of hardening soft targets right now. Is to me mandatory. think hospitals and schools are the low hanging fruit on both ends of the conversation. If I wanted to be a terrible person and I hated America, like I said.

I'd go recruit any number of the people who hate America who snuck in for that purpose in the last few years, and I'd orchestrate some horrid, horrid stuff. And then I blame it on somebody else, is what I'd do. But I think it's gonna get bad before it gets worse, is what I'm saying. Long story short, I think we're gonna see more of this. I think hospitals, unfortunately, are on the list.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08.266)
And that's just as disgusting because, know, as I saying before, there's a helpless person down there in a bed. Can't literally can't lift a hand to defend them. Like that's the ultimate vulnerable person. is children that are in the conversation. Absolutely. There's a weird thing in this country we do where we is there, does this exist with hospitals and healthcare? Because there's an active conversation around where there's an element in this country who's fighting to make sure schools are not protected.

They're fighting to make sure schools are unprotected zones. We don't want anybody anywhere near the school with a gun so that if somebody shows up with a gun, they can go hog wild with impunity. That's dumber than natural immunity doesn't work. These are the conversations that make me angry because they're an insult to your intelligence. You're telling me these kids are important.

Hmm

Speaker 2 (01:40:04.76)
But your actions tell me these kids aren't worth spit. I mean, so, and you know, I've seen the numbers, what it would take to put somebody in every single school in the country for 85K. And by somebody, mean like somewhere in a neighborhood of 3,500 or 4,000 special forces or something. I forget what the number was. This is crazy. But the budget was a fraction of other budgets that exist within our federal government.

I'm all for that kind of thing, but is there an element that specifically fights against protecting hospitals because guns make them sad, because they don't understand guns, or because they haven't done the prerequisite work to even use the correct terminology in a conversation about guns? And we'll use phrases like semi-automatic assault rifle. Like there's that element dictating gun posture.

without taking the time to learn what the words mean while they're trying to present their argument, to me, is one of the most outlandish anti-intellectual pursuits that there is currently.

think in healthcare, the biggest limitation is the margins that they're under, you know, financial. I think, think a lot of our, the executives I've worked with, they, they want to do things. but they, I've even, I've even seen them fail to install protection for themselves because if I haven't done certain things for the facility, I don't want it to perceive like I'm

taking care of myself, which I respect undoubtedly. But I think right now, I just think it is so competitive in healthcare and the margins are so low and so tight right now that, because I think they, even if they don't want to do it for the right reasons, they want to do it for retention, right? Because the cost of turnover with nurses turning over is astronomical, right? And so if they can create a safe environment to drive down turnover, it's,

Speaker 1 (01:42:12.728)
Fiscally, it is very advantageous to them. So to me, I still just think like a lot of it comes down to like simply a lack of budgets. But in the post I wrote on Tasha, right? Like how much is UPMC paying now? Right, because it seems to me like there's an emergency deployment of metal detectors. It seems like an emergency deployment of

a visitor management system. Like it seems like there's a lot of overtime for these officers, reputational costs. How many operational losses did they lose? while these facilities were down and people on their ERs on reroute, right? So to me, I think if we thought through what we will lose in the coming 10 years as a result of these types of events, perhaps they'd be willing to spend a little bit more now.

Even turnover. I would guarantee and I don't know how you'd measure it, but I guarantee your downstream turnover rate in a facility that's had a freaking shooting hostage event changes. I there's people who thought they had 10 years left who are like, I got like three years left. Yep. There is no way that doesn't affect the culture and there's no way the culture doesn't affect the turnover.

I mean, the crazy thing is, I mean, think about this, like these nurses were zip tied, right? And like used as human shields in our ER. And I kind of think it's probably way too early for me to make this forecast, but I half wonder if this dude was more of like a very glorified suicide by cop, right? Cause this one on 38 minutes and he didn't, didn't, he never, he never fatally shot any of.

you know, I shot at the police, but he didn't, he didn't fatally shoot any of the staff. so there, but there was time for it. Absolutely. Now there's times where he put this gun to the back of the Jess, Jessica's head and pulled the trigger three times and it was empty. Now, did he know that already? Right. Or was that like divine intervention, you know, probably never, never know.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25.674)
He exchanged rounds with the police. So he chambered.

He was, so he was shooting with, with police, but I'm just saying like, Hey, you know, this went on 38 minutes and there's no staff fatalities, right? Like, I think we were, we were more lucky than good here. I think we were, this dude was doing kind of like punishing the staff for the loss. And then I think he ultimately, this was his way to go out, like suicide by cop in a very extreme, you know, horrible route. don't know that I'm working with.

Facebook posts and one attorney or, you know, one, one brief, you know, but, you know, and while this is going on, like there's something came out today from like the local news there while this is going on at, less than five miles away, there was a, at well-span York, they had a patient break. I don't know if it's the window glass, some type of glass and was using it as a weapon.

You're gonna say that? Yeah

He was using it as a weapon to the point like, and they just know off of like court records, they charged them with vandalism. And I don't think any staff were hurt. were able to, they have like, I think they call it a BERT team, a type of behavioral health team that responds with security that's specially trained and, you know, at another level for deescalation. And they were able to deescalate this situation. But literally within five miles, you have these two incidents going on concurrently. Just to put it, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:46:00.654)
how much more frequently these types of incidents are happening.

Yeah, that's the York, Pennsylvania sample in a day. So, you know, on a Saturday. Yeah. So what happened in Memphis, St. Louis, Philly, Tampa? All right. More. More action, Afghanistan or Tampa?

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30.092)
Yeah, say Tampa.

Yeah, yeah, that's like Tampa's Tampa's not even on the list of the most right places. Florida.

the more ra- I'll say rowdiest places in-

Yeah. Yeah, I was. Yeah.

Well, and I'm really fascinating. You mentioned Mel Cortez again, and that's tack book.

Speaker 1 (01:46:55.724)
Yeah, see T a c t book. Mel's a nurse who had a really violent incident in Baltimore. I you won't really believe that. And, ultimately led to, you know, nonprofits she's created and, and some great work in the training space, I think for bedside staff, especially. I think that wheelhouse.

There is more opportunity, like it's easier to leverage and create your own media in an organized way right now. So I think you're going to see more and more of like people like her, people like you, not only managing to use their knowledge within an organization, but to package it and disseminate it in what either looks like a course or, you know, a seminar or even something that

you know, could eventually get certified or even be what would be considered like a continuing legal education training type thing for, um, uh, security officers in healthcare kind of things. Uh, yeah, I think keep your eye on that too. Let's keep, let's talk about that because a guy like you probably has already written a book. Right.

you maybe just didn't necessarily organize it. And AI is really good at that. Like I'm not saying it comes up with squat. I'm just saying it's really good for helping you reorder the presentation of things into a way that it helps you figure, I would have never, like there's just advantages and efficiencies to it. But what was that?

I said it's impressive, you what little I have seen so far.

Speaker 2 (01:48:40.418)
Yeah, it's wild. All right. With that, we might circle back though. I appreciate you coming on, Cole, just with a quick LinkedIn invite and explaining to me. I was sure it was, you know, not a cool topic, but it seemed to be a niche conversation that might be really interesting. And I'm sure it's ubiquitous from New Jersey to California. So, you're in Ohio. you sharing that worry. Yes. Yeah. You work in Pennsylvania.

And I would imagine you consult anywhere, right?

Yeah, anywhere. I've been a part of training with SWAT teams, former Army Special Operations Company from New Jersey, actually, did a lot of work in New Jersey to California. yeah, have a stand store we can put in there where you have a newsletter, throw out a lot of this stuff for free. Or if you want to jump on a call, if there's anything I can do to help, I'm happy to do it.

website where can they where can they go sign up for your newsletter

It's just, I'm most active on LinkedIn and then it's just StanStore and Matt Wains. If they just type in Matt Wains, Google Matt Wains, it'll pop right up. But it's StanStore there.

Speaker 2 (01:50:01.71)
All right, and then make sure you give me some links for GoFundMe for the York incident and we'll try and get this out. You know, no promises, but it's certainly a worthy cause. Your topic is certainly an interesting, again, I think we both agree, timely and we'll have more focus on it, unfortunately, in the future, I would assume. But thank you for your time and you're welcome back anytime.

Thank you so much, Tom. I appreciate you. You're sharing their story.

Speaker 1 (01:50:34.252)
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Speaker 2 (01:50:46.574)
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